Alaa, I've never felt so united with strangers as I do with those Russian mothers and fathers today. Have they finally gone too far? Will the entire world finally rise up with one voice and condemn these bastards? And mean it this time? Bridget | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 4:14 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where is the worlds outrage on this one. This is sickening these terrorist must be taking out. not even the children are safe Me | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 4:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm sure some how it's America's fault...if only GWB wasn't president, this wouldn't have happened. Joe | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 4:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is really unbelievable. But I think it is on purpose to appear 'insane'! This is Al Queda's strategy. They have stated their new goal is to provoke a war of Muslims against infidels. This is just a tactic. They are also trying to intimidate moderate Muslims. Nine of the terrorists so far have been Al Queda. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 5:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are they confirmed Al Queda, thinker? I've seen reports that 9 were Arabs, but nothing about affiliations with specific groups (then again, I might be behind the news curve). Achillea | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 5:22 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We are indeed in the middle of a new Word War. The Muslim world MUST pitch in on this one to keep it from becoming a religious war, one the Muslims cannot win. We non-Muslims cannot win without turning this into a bloodbath with that help. So, to all of the vast majority of humane Muslims out there; get off the fence and help us exterminate these monsters! Mike O | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 5:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, If you want to be really disgusted and angry, read this: Killers Set Terms, a Mother Chooses The terrorists made a Russian mother choose which of her 2 children to take to safety, or they would both die. She had to leave her daughter behind in the school. I thought the similar scene in the movie "Sophie's Choice" was horrible, but I never thought I'd see it happen in real life. . Lisa, New York | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 5:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "May the Lord God preserve humanity and lift this scourge from the earth." AMEN Gunny L | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 6:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Apparently the funding was Al Queda. I've got one web source that says the others were too but I only saw it one place so I don't know. Maybe we'll get some clarification later. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 6:45 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These muslims terrorist have to be culled and killed. Just like you would a rabid dog. They have proven time and time again they are no longer human. The time for polite negotiations are over. Kyla/California | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 6:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another terrible, terrible, terrible tribulation mankind must face in our modern world. These people who do this in the name of some religion or belief are today mankinds worse enemy. Hey, lets vote for Kerry so he can be sensitive to the feelings of the hostage takers and let this eventually happen in America too. Oh yea, it did happen here in America, have we already forgotton 9/11 or what all you antiwar nuts and actors in hollywood and of course democrats who want to vote for Kerry. Once again 9/11 in another place and time. Wake up you people who think this is the way to change things. All you are doing is killing and condeming your souls to hell. You ignorant bastards!!!! David from Calif David | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 7:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe they are not so crazy as we think. We were just slow to catch onto what they are doing because it is so alien to our thought process. They are like Sadr or Saddam; they have half the muslim world scared to death or under control because of religion, and by "creating a war on 9/11", they get to make us look like the agressors because we defend ourselves and say no more. We need to be careful and fight the right people and not lump everyone together, because that is just what they want with it's a war on Islam. It is time for the good people in the ME to help win this fight, or they will enslave us all by the time they are done. doorknob | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 7:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amen Cherryl | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 7:20 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, I woke up in the middle of the night and turned on the tv just as this was unfolding. I was horrified. I also considered the possiblity of such a thing happening here in the United States. It's horrifying and incomprehensible. The terrorists open fired on the children as they were trying to escape. Incomprehensible. . Michelle ~ USA | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 7:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This horrific act is Russia's 9/11. Now, perhaps finally they will realize that distancing themselves from America in the war on terror is no protection from these evil parasites. Hopefully this will lead to a reversal of Putin's previous position and lead to Russian troops taking part in future coalitions of the willing. Wouldn't that send a message to Al Qaeda & it's friends...American and Russian armed forces, the two most powerful in the world, abandoning their old Cold War animosity and working TOGETHER to exterminate these vermin. Prediction: Paris is next on the hit list. Michael/Los Angeles | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 8:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa; but more must be said. The ones who say it must represent all Muslims who wish to live in peace with their neighbors. Where are the Muslim leaders who will do this; who would they be; before good men like yourself are denigraded for y our religion those who would lead must now stand up and be heard. Who do you trust to speak for you? With all due respect, enough is enough. Laurel | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 8:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, It is very good to hear you denounce these savages. What I want to hear, however, are the political/religious/economic leaders of the ME denounce it. Why do we never hear them denounce these acts? It is because our press doesn't cover it, OR do these people never denounce these acts? I am not talking about half-hearted denunciations, either. We hear enough of those lies from Arafat and others. VA Gamer | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 8:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, I'm so sorry that you have to face this tragedy and feel in any way responsible because you happen to share a religion with these abominations. You can't think of it that way. You have to think about the good that you are trying to do by reaching out with your blog. I've speechless with horror at what happened. I couldn't sleep all last night and won't again tonight. I just can't believe that there are people of such despotic evil that they actually breathe air like the rest of us. We have to unite the whole world in this cause to rid ourselves of these human mutations. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 8:43 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For those who are wondering what the Russian soldiers' POV on this must have been like, here's the latest entry in an American soldier blog chronicling a very similar situation he took part in in the Balkans: That Russia Situation Interesting food for thought...should shut up a few of the whiners who will inevitably start screaming that it was all the troops' fault. A sample: "I saw that these rebels were lining up these kids and firing from the kids shoulders. Like they were a sand bag of some sort. Knowing that if the Americans shot back that they may hit a child and not even know it." Michael/Los Angeles | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 8:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not the first time guys and gals. In the early 90's in Morroco, some fundi's took over a catholic school and machined gunned the nuns and 20 to 30 children. This is the face of our enemy. Know it. Hate it. If you do not act against them, you are supporting them. Maybe this will cause Russia to rethink it's support for the Mullahs in Iran, who are the source for the arms and money that keep the fundi's going. "By God's leave, we call on every Muslim who believes in God and hopes for reward to obey God's command to kill the Americans and plunder their possessions wherever he finds them and whenever he can. To kill Americans and their allies, both civil and military, is an individual duty of every Muslim who is able." -Osama bin Laden (199 "We do not wage our jihad in order to replace the Western tyrant with an Arab tyrant. We fight to make God's word supreme, and anyone who stands in the way of our struggle is our enemy, a target of our swords." -Abu Musab al-Zarqawi "We don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity." -Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad stehpinkeln | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 9:20 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Alaa, Just moments ago I read an article at http://www.humaneventsonline.com/ article.php?id=4962 "Giuliani and the Hijacking of Islam" The next thing I read is your message and the comments that followed. I have long believed that we are in World War Three and just don't know it. It is not a war between countries or groups of countries. It is a war between good and evil. Since no race holds a monopoly on evil, it will be impossible to tell who the enemy is. "How does Giuliani know that these groups in Israel, Russia, and Iraq, and many other like them around the world, have "hijacked" Islam? How does he know that they don't in fact represent the true values of Islam, as they claim to do?" Alaa, I do not paint you and all other Muslims with the same brush but many do. You have already positioned yourself but you and all intelligent Muslims must do your best against those who are doing their best to high jack your religion. This concept applies to all races, religions, etc. There are evil people in all groups. It is the good Jew who must denounce those who call themselves Jews but commit evil acts. It is the good Christians who must denounce those who call themselves Christians but are evil. One of our presidential candidates claimed that he and all other US armed forces committed atrocities in Vietnam. After all these years a group of Vietnam Veterans finally said enough is enough and are fighting the lies told about them. Like the vets, it is time for Muslims to denounce those who claim to be Muslims and are killing in the name of YOUR religion. You already are doing so but you need to recruit an army of those who believe as you do. Muslims can't have it both ways. Does being Islam mean it is a duty to kill innocent persons or does being Islam mean that killing innocent people is evil? I now know the answer so I don't need convincing but millions around the world are learning about Islam from the wrong people. I can do a little to help but the words of a Christian can not carry the same weight as those of a Muslim when the subject is Islam. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 9:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard...You are preaching to the choir. Whenever something terrible happens...these poor bloggers who are also suffering doing the most they can...get comments like yours. There was a march in Najaf today against Al Sadr by moderates. Moderates are usually too frightened to speak up. Why didn't we hear about it? Why didn't we hear about it? I think its the media that is the problem combined with an old cultural system that uses fear to control events. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 9:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's events like this that can shake someone's faith in God. I never lose faith in Him, only His flawed and sinful followers. Paul | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 9:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This incident might not be justify but it is also the responsibility of the imperialism of Russian Empire to continue to occupy Chechen after the invasion just for oil and soil. How many people know that the people of Chechen have encountered ethnic cleansing by the evil Russian force. How many people know that many of the Chechen have been harrased, tortured, and killed by the Russian police. Some have vanished and not report alive after captured by the Russian police. Russia also has dropped mines from military aircrafts in Chechen. Mines do not choose its target and has been criticized by the UN with uprising of the people to ban mines. How many people have seen dead bodies of the inncoent children of Chechen killed by the evil Russians? America is much more cute because they plan to withdraw their force from Iraq and Afghanistan in the next few years; but Russia still deploys their force at Chechen for almost a decade. The hostage takers should not only be blamed, but also Russia and Putin in specific continuing to torture the people of Chechen in their country and occupying Chechen for oil and soil. Ken | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 10:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Look upon the true face of Islam. There may be "moderate" Muslims (although they must be extremely rare), but there is no such thing as moderate Islam. Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 10:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, I have been posting on your blog from the beginning and I consider myself a friend of you and all the great Iraqi Bloggers. I know you are a religious Muslim and I respect you and your beliefs, but something is seriously wrong with Islam. Your religion is being highjacked by extremists and is in many instances their behavior is being condoned by many, many Muslims. Why? Please just tell me why all the horrors of this world are being done by Muslims and only Muslims. Understand, I am not accusing you. I trust your judgement. Can Islam change? Is throat-cutting and killing innocent children the Way of Islam? You tell me. We in the West are at the end of our patience with Islamic terrorism. I live near where the World Trade Center stood. Many of my students are Russian and they are in deep mourning over their children slaughtered by Muslims. Alaa, please help me understand what is wrong with Muslims. Please. * Jeffrey -- New York | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 10:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "This incident might not be justify but it is also the responsibility of the imperialism of Russian Empire to continue to occupy Chechen after the invasion just for oil and soil. How many people know that the people of Chechen have encountered ethnic cleansing by the evil Russian force" For once in your stupid, worthless life have a little respect Ken and just shut the F..K up!! There is no way you can turn this into a tragedy that is justifed because of Russia's of "imperialistic aggression". But leave it to you to try. Your pathological, single-minded delusions about the US being responsible for every evil the world has ever known, are not going to be tolerated here tonight. We're here to grieve with the Russians over their murdered children.The Chechen terrorists have forfeited the right they had to compassion or sympathy for their cause by this unforgivable atrocity. Alaa, if you want to express your compassion and empathy with the Russians tonight over the loss of their brutally murdered children, please delete Ken's excretement. We would be forever grateful. Keith | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 10:50 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "This incident might not be justify[ied]..." You lost me right there, Ken, you amoral fool. I'd like to hear an explanation of your use of the qualifier "might" and subsequent attempt at explanation/justification. There is NO justification for taking innocent children hostage in their schoolrooms, blowing them up and shooting them in the back as they flee. Whatever the Chechens have suffered, whatever their cause, they lost ALL chance for justification or explanation. It's similar to the Palestinian situation. When they deliberately blow up buses full of schoolchildren and the elderly and CELEBRATE the deaths of innocents by cheering in the streets and distributing candies, they lose ANY chance at sympathy for their "cause". It's truly sad when people, like Ken, lose the ability to call EVIL by its name. . Lisa, New York | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 10:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I share your outrage, Alaa. The reason the religion has been hijacked is the same as why the entire German culture was hijacked by Naziism: good, decent, middle-class people simply cannot fathom true evil. Watch any WWII movie--they all start the same, with a nice family saying "oh, it can't happen here" and slowly but surely it does. Their decency dooms them. Alaa, decent Muslims like must continue to speak up, no matter how weary you are, no matter how dangerous it is. As Bush says, "We will not falter, we will not fail." It took 9/11 to wake us up, but we're with you! Patricia | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 11:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to say that the last person I expected to feel any solidarity with would be Putin, but I was moved to send the following to the BBC: "I suspect that Putin's immediate concern will have been to be seen to be strong rather than be seen to be negotiating," said Alex Standish, editor of Jane's Intelligence Digest. "And if that means sacrificing civilians caught up in the middle, I don't suspect that is the key issue as far as Putin is concerned," he said. I just picked this up from a Reuters story on the terrorist attack on the school in Russia. It rates as one of the most spectacularly crass and vicious speculations for no apparent reason other than his biase I think I've ever seen. Exactly what did the fellow expect soldiers watching little kids getting gunned down to do? Hopefully, you're not so stupid as to actually be PAYing this jerk. yarnlady | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 11:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm sorry but words are not enough. Until governments of Muslim nations reform their ways and separate policy from dogma, until your schools teach tolerance instead of hate, until your religion reforms and marginalizes elements like Wahhabism and Deobandism, until it's no longer "Islam uber alles", until people like Osama and Baseyev are treated worse than gays by your sharia...you cannot say "this is not my religion". It is now deal with it or reap the whirlwind. As for Ken, I guess someone should point out "Dagestan" on a map so he can get started on the path to not-a-complete-utter-moron. beowulf | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 11:14 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia, Good point. It is past time -- way past time -- for all good Muslims to stand up and let their voices be heard. Alaa, your voice has always been strong on this issue. Let's hope more Muslims listen to you and stand up and take their religion back. * Jeffrey -- New York | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 11:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hehe, Methinks truth has raided sam's secret stash. Bridget | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 11:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- whoops, wrong blog. sorry Bridget | Email | Homepage | 09.03.04 - 11:50 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is from this morning's WA Post: When a group of Muslims from [nearby]villages decided to offer themselves as hostages in exchange for the students Thursday, officials discouraged them from coming to Beslan to present their proposal for fear of stirring violence. "We told them it's too dangerous," said Yuri Sidakov, head of the region's human rights commission. "They would dress in Muslim clothes and it might provoke a reaction." ............................... How sad. That group of Muslims are as different from the hostage-takers as day is from night. Children terrorized. Such horror. I am sick at heart. mary | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 12:32 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is a 501c3 fund set up called the International Foundation for Victims of Terror Acts. It is linked to the Russian embassy website. A quick google can verify. This is not their first project. You can make tax-deductible, monetary donations via paypal or credit card. There is no money taken out of the domations for operating expenses. The full amount goes straight to the victims' families as cash. Joel (No Pundit Intended) | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 1:10 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa I feel the same way. The pictures of those children - they were the ages of my children! I am so sad and so angry. Monica-Philadelphia | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 1:40 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First, my sympathies to the people of Russia. This could not have hurt me more deeply than if this had happened in my own country. Nothing has hurt or angered me this much since 911. My thoughts and prayers are with all of you. It is very important to the Middle East to end their incitement, support and training for these Islamic terrorists. In case they STILL haven't noticed, all terrorism exported to us, is being returned back to it's rightful home, the Middle East. We will continue to return it to them until it or they are finished. I would rather see every single human being in the Middle East dead than to have this happen at one single US school. And I am not the only one that feels this way. This is something the entire Middle East ought to think very hard about because this is all ISLAMIC TERRORISM now matter how many politically correct idiots try to say it is not. All these children were terrorized, beaten, tortured and brutally murdered in the name of Islam. I stand by Russia and it's people in doing WHATEVER necessary to make doing something like this again absolutely unthinkable, even to the inhuman freaks of nature screaming "Allah is Great!" while committing these vicious inhuman acts of pure evil. I am about as fed up as a person can get of the entire world walking around on tip toes afraid to upset the Muslims. Frankly, I don't give a damn if the Muslims are offended. Too goddamned bad. They burn our flags, shout "death to America" and spread vicious propaganda to incite violence against us and this is addition to actively plotting our destruction. Do they think we are not offended by this? Do they realize when they shout "death to America" they are calling for the murder of MY children? When I hear this I get this overwhelming urge to take a Koran and shove it up their hateful ignorant asses. And that is one of the nicer thoughts I have about them. Look, people need to face the fact that everyone that condemned Israel for killing the terrorists and their supporters that seek out and brutally murder Israeli children (YES, they DO specifically target children.) share in the responsibility for making these monsters think this is a legitimate form of "resistance". When you condemn Israel for killing child murderers, instead of the ISLAMIC terrorists deliberately murdering their children, you are telling these terrorists that what happened today in Russia is OK if the cause is worthy enough to them. To think that you can support, even if only with silence and looking the other way, the deliberate murder of Israeli children and think that that this does not make them think that OUR children are also fair game whenever they feel wronged is irresponsible, dangerous and just plain stupid. While I deeply and sincerely sympathize with the people of Russia, I have no sympathy for Putin. With Putin hell bent on providing Iran, the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world, with all it needs to build nuclear bom Cherice | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 3:28 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- continued... While I deeply and sincerely sympathize with the people of Russia, I have no sympathy for Putin. With Putin hell bent on providing Iran, the largest state sponsor of terrorism in the world, with all it needs to build nuclear bombs, what happened in Russia today will be nothing compared to what will happen to others if Putin succeeds in arming Iran with nukes. And this does NOT mean I hold Putin responsible for this. I do not. I hold the terrorists and their supporters responsible. As far as the Russian troops, it should be understood that these hostages had no water and no food. These Islamic terrorists refused to pass food or water to them. These hostages were on their third day. That is the day when people with no water quickly begin dying of dehydration. It couldn't be allowed to continue much longer. All these children would have died of dehydration. Even if these explosions had not forced them to react, they would have had to do something very drastic and very soon or they would have all died. Anytime a cause, no matter how worthy, has been taken over by Islamic terrorists the cause loses all legitimacy and cannot expect the support of the international community. I have no sympathy for Chechnya whatsoever now. At one time, I supported them a great deal, but now they can all burn in hell for all I care. Cherice | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 3:29 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Richard...You are preaching to the choir. Whenever something terrible happens...these poor bloggers who are also suffering doing the most they can...get comments like yours. thinker-USA" If the choir's name is Alaa, then I am preaching to the choir. If I started a crash program today to learn Arabic and the Koran I might be able to talk to Muslims with some degree of knowledge in a couple of years. In twenty or thirty years I might be able to pass as an Iraqi. Alaa has a lifetime of experience and knowledge. He knows the minds of good Iraqis. His blogs have been a tremendous help in my understanding of the situation in Iraq. I also know that he is not alone. What I do not know is if his side has the strength to make the other side die for their distortions of his religion. You and I can do our part by making others see that not all Muslims are crazy bastards out to kill women and children, but it is up to the Muslims to weed out those crazy bastards. You can't do it and neither can any outsider. They must heal their religion from within. As far as I know the U.S. is viewed as invaders or occupiers by about the same numbers Iraqis those who consider us liberators. Events will shift the numbers back and forth but until there is a clear majority on the side of freedom and democracy, how is anyone to feel an obligation to help them win freedom? Can you state it as fact that the majority of Iraqis feel as Alaa does? I can't. Actually, it doesn't take a majority. After W.W. II country after country fell to communism. Not one of those counties had a majority who were communists. In fact, the communists never had over 3 percent of the population but they had the right persons in their party. So why am I preaching to Alaa? Because it does no good to preach to fools on the other side. If I can encourage one Iraqi to recruit two more Iraqis to voice his or her opinion as Alaa does and they in turn recruit two more and so on, the battle will be won but only if they act faster than the opposition. "I think its the media that is the problem combined with an old cultural system that uses fear to control events." It is the media here and it is a cultural system in Iraq that are the problem. The one sided views of our media establishment can be countered by effective use of the Internet. Alaa and other bloggers are proving that. I doubt that the Internet can be as effective in changing opinions in Iraq. Not unless everyone in Iraq has access to the Internet. I also believe that no wise Iraqi can hand out leaflets on a street corner and live a long life. Since am not there, I really don't know what the best plan would be. Probably one on one contacts until powerful groups can be formed. Some years ago I was told of a "secret" group. The group leader knew the phone numbers of only two members. Each of them knew two phone numbers. With two phone calls and a few words, the leader assembled over 2,000 armed men in unde Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 4:35 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some years ago I was told of a "secret" group. The group leader knew the phone numbers of only two members. Each of them knew two phone numbers. With two phone calls and a few words, the leader assembled over 2,000 armed men in under twenty minutes. Maybe groups like that are what are needed. I firmly believe that Alaa and friends need to find a way to counter those who are bent on destroying freedom. I have been able to sway the opinions of friends and relatives by forwarding messages and including URLs but when someone says that a message reflects the opinion of just one Iraqi, it is great to be able to point to more bloggers, each saying the same thing their own way. Truth can win but only if enough people know the truth. It is not the established media that will provide the truth so they must be bypassed. We can do that. I truly believe that it is time for all to stand up and be counted. Not just in Iraq but it is a good place to start. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 4:46 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am shaking and crying right now. I was in shock, It has wonr off. Yes Cherice I used to support Chechnya, but not anymore. I pray for the souls of the dead and their families, and I pray for the wounded physical and emotional and mental wounds too. I don't have any children, only nieces and nephews. I would be as mad and as grief stricken as a parent would if that happened to them. I am just sickend by this. Alaa this does not apply to you. when is the muslim world finally going to figure out that it is in the grip of a deep sickness? If you get a deep cut, and don't cut off the necrotic tissue, the healthy tissue will not heal. The healthy muslims must cut out the necrotic muslims, or else Islam will not survive. Pamela in Colorado | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 4:56 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, you need to come with a strategy on how to stop people indoctrinating their children with things from the Koran, as described here: http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm You can't just keep saying sorry. You need to stop this book of hate. There's a limited number of times you can say sorry. We're flexible, but you need to come back with a proposal. Otherwise the genocide starts, and we have all the weapons. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:05 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps the answer will come from America. Where else? ME expatriots now US citizens live and worship freely among their neighboring christians,jews, buddhists; amazing isn't it? As America exports liberty and democracy, AMERICAN MUSLIM LEADERS must HELP lead the rest of the world towards peace. Where are these guys? Hello? Laurel | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:41 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, may your little one grow up in a peaceful Iraq. I grieve with you for the senseless deaths of those poor children and those that will be scarred for life from this terrible experience. I agree that those of you who are truly good people, who love humanity and desire peace must speak out against the radical elements in your faith. Did Sistani say anything to the Iraqis about this? Pat in NC | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:47 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, it's tragic that your religion has been hijacked by these pathetic dirtbags. They are the ones targeted in the war on terrorism, and the only ones, not the majority of muslims who don't approve of their actions such as yourself. My heart goes out to the Russian people who lost loved ones in the downing of the jets and this latest terrorist attacks. You are right, there is no justification for such acts against anyone, but especially children. Gary B. | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:48 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No one in their right mind can tell me these children were killed in the name of ANY God. The Devils hand did this!! Cindy | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:50 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I also considered the possiblity of such a thing happening here in the United States." Didn't something similar (but on a smaller scale) happen at Columbine? Psychopaths have a tendency to kill children as it shocks the test of us more than killing adults. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:54 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "This is the face of our enemy. Know it. Hate it." Know it, but don't hate it. Once you start hating, you are trapped in the same emotional mess as they are. One of the main things they want is a general war between all Muslims and everyone else (Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Marxists, ...). What is needed is a thorough extraction of the psychopaths from society. This is a heavy duty police problem, really, as they are mainly living among and "swimming in" the civilian population. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 9:03 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Anytime a cause, no matter how worthy, has been taken over by Islamic terrorists the cause loses all legitimacy and cannot expect the support of the international community. I have no sympathy for Chechnya whatsoever now. At one time, I supported them a great deal, but now they can all burn in hell for all I care." Think harder. The Chechens may have originally had a good cause (they, or some of them, want independence from Russia). Over the years, the two sides (Russians and Chechens) have both gone down and down in their tactics. This kind of sordid death struggle is fertile ground for the psychopaths to move in and push out the original honest patriots. Then you get terror campaigns, worse repression, worse terror. That does not mean that the original cause of independence was wrong, or that Chechens have not suffered terribly as well as Russians. I have sympathy for both sides. I wish there was a way to stop them fighting. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 9:23 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Descend Anger of the whole of decent humanity in one great convulsion to exterminate all the zombies everywhere once and for all." You can only exterminate psychopaths of this kind if the condition is inherited and has a simple genetic cause. Otherwise you would kill or sterilise them all in one generation, but they will be replaced in the next. If it is a genetic condition, their children may well already be alive - Osama has a family, for instance. No good killing him and then several sons grow up and carry on the evil. But we have (as far as I know) no idea at all what causes this kind of murderous paranoia. It could be a part of the brain not growing properly. That could be caused by a genetic defect or by early brain damage (there is some evidence that head injuries in children can cause bad behavior later). It could be a defect in one of the brain chemicals. That would probably be a genetic defect. It could be entirely the result of bad experiences such as being abused as a child. Or it may be that only when two or three of such problems come together do you get a man or woman who likes killing people. We just do not know. Nor do we know that it is a definite state - you are either a psychopath or not - or whether it is a tendency that will come out in bad conditions such as civil war. What we want is for people to stop killing, torturing, bullying, and dominating others. But until we know a lot more about why they do these things, it will be very hard to prevent them. Really, we need to get to them before they start on their criminal activity, not wait until they have done something evil. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 9:48 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We will continue to return it to them until it or they are finished. I would rather see every single human being in the Middle East dead than to have this happen at one single US school. " That sentence is evil. Think about it. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 9:51 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don, "What we want is for people to stop killing, torturing, bullying, and dominating others. But until we know a lot more about why they do these things, it will be very hard to prevent them" This is completely documented here: http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=335 Have fun! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 10:07 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Al-Arabiya General Manager: Muslims are main perpetrators of terrorism "Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television wrote in his daily column published in the pan-Arab Asharq Al- Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!" I'd be interested to know if there is full English version of this story. Originally Jeff | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 10:24 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Will the world finally rise up, as Bridget asks? The EU has already "demanded an explanation" from the Russians as to how they could have allowed this tragedy to occur! Unbelievable. Patricia | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 11:10 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Look guys...I know everyone is extremely upset. I would like to point out to you that jihadis in Algeria recently called for jihad and nobody came. Yes. The good people of Algeria has had enough of them and they turn them in to the authorities. First, they become reduced in number by the public getting their head on straight. Then, they turn them in. There's a tipping point. But Don, intelligence and police work won't work until the numbers are reduced. There are 30,000 Muslims meeting in America now. One of the speakers spoke about American Muslims setting an example of religious tolerence for their Arab brethren. There is also an American mosque demanding that services be given in English...the beginnings of a reformation! Good Muslims cannot find their voice just yet. Many leaders like Alaa are setting an example. The numbers are growing. You guys....Its going to take time but a dialogue has begun and it is growing. My concern with preacjing to the choir is that moderates of the world are allies...no matter the religion, origin, etc. But it is moderates in the Middle East that need our love and support. It is easy for us to suggest this and that but oftimes...our friends are a voice in the wilderness which is much much harder and infinitly more dangerous. Moderate Muslims need our support. Lets try to be helpful. Please. Lay off Alaa. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 11:13 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Terrorism is a growing cancer that warrants immediate radical surgery. Sometimes, regrettably, cancer can only be removed by sacrificing attached healthy tissue.Nations' leaders who profess to be against terrorism must come together and mutually agree on two important declarations: 1.) NEVER, EVER negotiate with terrorists. 2.) Terrorists and accomplices will own ALL RESPONSIBILTY for the deaths, injuries, or damage to any persons, places (including schools, hospitals, mosques, churches, etc.) or the surrounding environment with any injurious encounter, hostage events, or combat operations. "Root causes" should never be used to excuse terrorism. Countries that deny these declarations should forfeit any protection benefits by allies committed against terror and be carefully scrutinized for complicity with terrorists thereafter. The Russian commandos may or may not have ignited the subsequent carnage. But the ultimate culpability belongs exclusively to those who use children for hostages or shields. Ambiguity must take a back seat to resolve on this war on terror. Larry F | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 11:33 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel - thanks for the link International Foundation for Victims of Terror Acts. Matt S. | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 12:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, when will one muslim kill another muslim in defense of the innocents? What will it take for muslims to police their own? When will a muslim worry about the life of an infidel and be willing to sacrifice his own life to save that of the infidel? When will we hear from the mosques that killing Americans and Jews is wrong? When will islam take a long hard look at itself? Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 12:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you Thinker. You've chosen your handle very well. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 1:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very nice and thoughtful comments. However, there comes a time when it is better to kill the entire mound than continue efforts to find the fire-ant queen. I suspect that Putin is struggling with this question at this very moment. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 2:41 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've figured out everything now, from first principles. I've added the below to my "winning ideology" document: http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=335 In addition, any religion that considers humanists, including atheist secular humanists, as part of an out-group (thus inferior) should be banned or reformed. Otherwise atheists and heathens end up getting burnt at the stake. Basically even atheists should be allowed into Heaven if there is a benevolent God. Vengeful Gods should not be allowed. They are harmful to society. All governments need to be humanist and science-based. In the west, that is "accidentally" achieved by democracy amongst adults. Israel/Palestine is solved in the comments section here: http://kurdo.blogspot.com/2004/09/who-said-we-have-no-friends-gerald.html That's it. World peace. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 3:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "But Don, intelligence and police work won't work until the numbers are reduced." But without intelligence and police work, the numbers will never be reduced. That doesn't mean there will never be a fire fight when the police work goes wrong - but the aim is to catch the terrorists before they set out on a mission, not wait until they are holding the hostages or have exploded a bomb. I'm not saying it's easy. For one thing, the US intelligence needs thousands of Arabic speakers. The news from Algeria is very heartening, especially as the trouble started with the Islamist extremists winning an election. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 3:46 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Terrorism is a growing cancer that warrants immediate radical surgery. Sometimes, regrettably, cancer can only be removed by sacrificing attached healthy tissue." However, the whole trend in cancer research now is toward treatment that _avoids_ radical surgery, by using intelligent drugs and antibodies. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 3:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With each new act of babarity I simply find myself closer and closer to endorsing the actions of the Mongols. It is pointless to allow a dog to eat at the dinner table. If his freiends insist upon treating a dog as one of their own, then at some time they too should be treated as dogs. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 3:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don...reducing the numbers entails work on many fronts. Working with allies in the ME to change education regarding tolerance, fair media that is not promoting war, our policies regarding civilians in Iraq, reconstruction, improving literacy, citizen participation in government, etc. That is all involved in long term work. Short term though, it is important to realize that something may come up either tactically or strategically that may have to be handled by military means. A nuclear threat for instance. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 4:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh. And thanks Louise. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 4:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, the whole trend in cancer research now is toward treatment that _avoids_ radical surgery, by using intelligent drugs and antibodies. That's very true Don. Our military is structured in the same manner with research towards smarter weapons (to lessen collateral damage), better intelligence, systemic treatment for democratic reforms and healthier infrastructures in place of brutal dictatorships and sanctuaries for terrorists. As medical research has advanced, doctors still have to amputate and remove parts of the body in order to save it. Larry F | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 5:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Moderate Muslims need our support. Lets try to be helpful. Please. Lay off Alaa. thinker-USA" "When Muslims are a minority community, the Koran permits them to adopt a peaceful attitude to deceive their neighbors, until they feel strong enough to dispense with the pretense" What is a "Moderate Muslim"? One who rejects many of the teachings or one that accepts that it is okay to deceive? For me to believe in a Muslim, that Muslim must do more than condemn acts of violence. He must also reject ignorant statements by religious leaders like the one below. "In 1993, Saudi Arabia's supreme religious authority declared that the world is flat, and that anyone who disagrees is an infidel to be punished" Whether I believe the world is flat or not has nothing to do with any religion of men. No man can state that I am an infidel to be punished because I believe that the world is round and hold my respect. I don't respect fools or those who follow the words uttered by fools. Alaa and thinker, if you or anyone else consider my words to be foolish, reject them. However, apply the same critical thinking to the words of all men no matter how exalted you believe a man to be. It is my belief that there is but one God. I also believe that there is an anti-god. Some call the later Satin but names don't matter, acts do. God does not condone the murder of innocent people, Satin promotes it. After 3 centuries of seeing Christians murdered by Muslims, the Christians responded. Did the Crusaders kill just radical Muslims? I doubt that very much. I would bet that "moderate Muslims" were killed as well. If the world gets fed up with Muslim radicals and takes any action neccessary to end the problem, no Muslim will be safe. For their own well-being, moderate Muslims must unite and defeat their own brothers if they are a terrorist or condon the acts of terrorists. Many talk of the Holocaust in Germany when 12 million people were killed. There is no argument that can make that acceptable to me. Nor is there any argument that can make the massacres perpetrated by Muslims in India acceptable to me. The later far exceeds the former in numbers killed. I condemn alike the Nazis and Muslims who committed those acts. I also condemn any religion that condons killing for the purpose of promoting a religion. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 6:04 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard...The place in the Middle East where what you want to happen most IS occuring is IRAQ. Moderates are finding a voice and showing extreme courage every day and becomming more organized. This can only take place in an atmsphere of freedom of thought and speech. They have only had a year. Its going to take some time. But I'll tell you one thing. If moderates are caught between fear of Americans and fear of their Muslim brothers...we will all lose. Bush is right. This war is not winnable militarily. It takes a combined effort on many fronts to win it. The military is a blunt instrument. I am glad you are not President because your theories are not strategically smart enough to win it. Its much more complicated than you think. Radical Islam rears its head every 100 years or more in the Middle East...but there have been centuries when violent jihad was not even considered correct interpretation. Radicalizing moderates is a recipe for failure. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 7:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Edwards - thank you for the link. You have helped me move my thinking past religion. Read Thomas Barnett http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/weblog/ scroll quite a ways down to his recent visit with the Chinese and discussion of Taiwan. fellows | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 7:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard; If religion has anything positive to contribute to the current situation, I have yet to see evidence of it. OTOH, vast evil and damage has been promoted and justified in its name(s). By their fruits, etc. Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 7:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are right thinker. We are in a race. Empowering true moderates versus radicals pushing the limits. If the radicals win the race, then wiping the slate clean becomes the most viable option. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 7:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We may find ourselves running short on time, thinker. I'm hopeful with regards to Iraq, but there are threats that may require a military solution in order to safegaurd our nation's security, and those threats may materialize soon. I don't see Islam reforming itself anytime in the near future, and that is truly tragic, but it doesn't mean this war isn't winnable. In fact, it must be won, whether the moderates gain the upper hand or not. I've never been one of those hankering for a fight, but I'm beginning to think it will be extremely difficult to avoid. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 7:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fellows; As a general principle, these blogs have a specific link for each day's postings. In the case of Barnett's, the timestamp is the link, and you can use it as a permanent pointer to the top of a specific posting. This one is: http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/weblog/archives/000764.html Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 7:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "safeguard" ...I don't think I've ever spelled that word correctly, unless it was by mistake JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John L...Yes you are right it is going to take a combination of policies and approaches to solve the problem A long term strategy of helping th Middle East become a place where people don't support terrorism and a short term policy of defense as it becomes necessary even if it is preemption. If any nation becomes a serious problem to our nationaly security..then we will have to act. But, we must pursue the long term goal as well... thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:13 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After seeing virtually no main stream Islamic media condemn the killings and rapes committed by muslim terrorists in Russia makes me wonder if these atrocities (much more worse that abu ghraib) aren't being quietly praised by the imams and ayatollahs. It also makes me question our involvement in the Arab/Muslim sphere of influence. Why should we defend muslims in Bosnia or Serbia? Why should we defend muslins anywhere in the world? I've heard that the Russian atrocity was linked in a news article to zionists by some Egyptians. Tell me again why American men and women are dying in Iraq. Tell me why we shouldn't just dust off Saddam and return him to his friends and family. I mean it really appears that muslims on one hand complain about being persecuted, but when helped go and bite the hand that helps them. Strange attitude. Quite frankly we don't want to be in Iraq. Alaa, I've followed your comments for the past several months (ever since the avenger of the bones posting)and have hopped around to some of the other Iraqi bloggers and have read what they have to say. The Americans come off as either a royal pain in the ass/offensive to the Iraqis or as source of goodies with not much in between. What sort of relationship is that? Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed, but for the long term strategy to be effective we'll have to continue to act boldly, and that's why I support Bush. Kerry's consensus-building, don't-rock-the-boat approach will ultimately lead to problems which are much more difficult to resolve in the future. The boat needs to be rocked, and pressure must be continually applied. It may make a lot of people uncomfortable, but the alternative is infinitely worse. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puzzled...The Editor of Al Arabia wrote an article yesterday which challenged all Muslims to admit that all terrorists are Muslim and to stop making excuses. The leaders of almost every country in the Middle East...roundly condemmed the actions. In fact, condemnation this time has been loud. VERY LOUD! Yes, the radical Islamists were ambivalent but moderates were speaking out all over the Middle East. This is the first time I have ever heard so many people speak up. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puzzled, now you've made me puzzled. Evidently, we haven't been reading the same Iraqi blogs. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:34 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thinker, when I popped on over to Al Jaziera all I got was the slide show showing the corpses. Nothing from the leaders of any Muslim countries. Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No Alaa, it is NOT in the name of your God. This is satanic, they have stolen the trappings of the Muslim religion to hide themselves but they have been revealed for what they truely are. These are not good men led astray, these are deamons from hell spreading their evil throughout the world. I have long said this is a battle between good and evil and this week has proven that. Yesterday the mask slipped and we looked straight into the face of evil. There is no denying it now. We either fight this thing or we will be consumed by it. Tina | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John...I don't necessasarily think it is necessary to rock the boat. The radical Islamists are rocking the boat. We have to defend ourselves and in a vise...use preemption. The boat is already rocking. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puzzled, I heard that on FOX...try googling the embassies. As for the Al Arabia article...I don't remember where I saw it. I think it may have been msnbc. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:41 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a link that is interesting in that the gentleman says that what took place in Russia is permitted by Muslims in the UK. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:44 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If religion has anything positive to contribute to the current situation, I have yet to see evidence of it. OTOH, vast evil and damage has been promoted and justified in its name(s)." Brian H If the evil done in the name of religion is the only thing that you can see, nothing I can say will change your mind. However, if you can see that both good and evil can result from religion, you have a chance. Next step is to look behind the beliefs. It is a common belief that Adam was the first man. The first chapter of Genesis covers the creation and says that man was created on the sixth day. Chapter two tells of the creation of Adam and does not state that they are the same event. Nor does it state that they are not the same event. Man made an assumption that the two events are one. If one reads carefully, there are other assumptions to be found. There are also flat out distortions that are not based on the Bible at all. A common one is that Christ was born on 25 December. 25 December was a pagan holiday adopted by the early church as the birth of Christ. I don't know how you define "religion" but don't confuse faith in a Creator with faith in the teachings of man. There are many who have made a belief in evolution a religion. Therein lies my definition of religion, a faith that something is true but can not be proven by scientific means. "I am glad you are not President because your theories are not strategically smart enough to win it. thinker" Don't be so sure of yourself to claim to know what I would or wouldn't do as President but I will say this: If it were done my way, there would not have been one ground war in Iraq, much less two. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I disagree, thinker. It's up to us to agitate for change. Radical Islamists were active long before 9/11, but it was business as usual in most capitols around the world. We can no longer afford for that to be the case. Did you see Big Pharaoh's blog today, regarding the fatwa against American civilians issued from Qatar? JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puzzled...Yes...As I said, the radical Islamists say this stuff. Remember that Al Jazeerah is apparently controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood and is is referred to as the Voice of Al Queda to moderates in the Middle East. Try finding that article at msnbc and expand your other sources. There are always nuts. Always. And there are quite a few of them in the Middle East. I had already read those comments you mention but I'm telling you...on balance...this has been codemned. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John...I think we are on the same page. I agree with you in agitating for change...I'm referring to using the military. I don't think we have to want to stir up that pot. If it is thrust upon us by a threat...so be it. What I meant is that I think the radicals are stirring that pot already. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 8:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, you're right...same page. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 9:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, I went to Google News and did a search on: russia sympathy muslim I found a typical "yes we sympathize but..." comment by an Indian paper. The AIMMM, therefore, deplores and condemns, without any reservation, such indefencible acts of terrorism by the Chechen militants, which target the Russian people and which lose the Chechen Freedom Movement the support and sympathy of friendly peoples all over the world. However, the AIMMM takes this opportunity to reiterate its moral support to Chechenya's centuries- old struggle for liberation from Russia and condemns the deliberate and politically motivated violation by President Putin of the Russia-Chechenya Agreement of 1994 and his relaunch of the war of conquest in 1999 with unprecedented brutality and massive violation of human rights, punctuated by bogus elections to impose Russian stooges and crush the will of the Chechen people." Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 9:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- try msn or msnbc...google...Al Arabia...terrorists are muslims. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 9:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a MSNBC roundup of various reactions to the terrorism in Russia. Al-Arabiya General Manager: Muslims are main perpetrators of terrorism "Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television wrote in his daily column published in the pan-Arab Asharq Al- Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!" The story is from http://www.asharqalawsat.com/ which is in Arabic. Originally Jeff | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 10:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you Jeff! You found it! thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 10:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television, you are either a very brave man or you have the backing of your government. Either way you've just made enemies of some of the Muslim clergy and militants who may try to bring death and destruction on you and your family. I pray for G_d to protect you and your family. Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 10:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puzzled, I totally agree but all those who are risking all to speak the truth should be included. That includes Alaa who has been speaking out for months. I know that I am asking him to do even more but that doesn't mean I am down playing what he is doing. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 11:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Japanese have a proverb "A nail that sticks up gets hammered back down." You stick your head up too high and you become that nail. I realize that Alaa and the other Iraqi bloggers do take great risks in posting on the internet. I just wish that the rest of Iraq knew that when their country was hitting on all cylinders we would pack up and leave. Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.04.04 - 11:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The European Union is demanding an accounting from the Russian authorities for their savage actions. Why did they not negotiate peacefully with those in the school? Instead, they stormed the building, resulting in the deaths of many people, including more than 20 of the brave freedom fighters who were drawing the attention of the world to the actions of the Russian colonial regime. You should be aware that the Caucasus region is Muslim land. North Ossetia is a Christian enclave maintained by the Russians in order to subjucate and humiliate the Muslims in the surrounding areas. Because the Russians have no interest in peacefully withdrawing from Muslim lands, the inhabitants thereof have no alternative but to fight for their rights. Allahu akbar Reza | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 12:56 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh come on Reza...Everybody knows that the EU clarified that statement. The youngsters at the scene said that when the Russian's entered the building to remove the dead bodies as agreed upon, one of the bombs went off and children started running and the terrorists started shooting them in the back. Then the Russians HAD to fire back and then the terrorists set off all the other bombs and then the Russians stormed the building. Sick bunch of folks...those terrorists. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:18 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Puzzled, "Tell me again why American men and women are dying in Iraq" Americans are doing the military task of training the ING and IP so that they can take over from the Americans. Then Americans are no longer dying in Iraq. Thus that argument is moot. You can then ask a different question, which is why should American money be used to support the ING and IP so that they can bring the rule of law to Iraq so that all people have equal rights? Because it is a noble thing to do, that's why. The next thing you need to ensure is that the Iraqis elect a humanist, science-based government. This should be done via mandatory constitutional requirement. The ING is there to defend the constitution. This is what is missing from places like Venezuela, where a non-humanist like Chavez can implement a non-scientific economic system and everyone loses in the long term. Worldwide religious reform such that there are no "out-groups" for any humanists is a separate issue. And a worldwide end to racism, especially the very prevalent Arab vs everyone-else and black vs white, also needs to be carried out. It is a lose/lose situation, which is why there are so many blacks in jail. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:27 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reza, Reza, Reza. What would happen to you if you actually engaged in some Muslim self-reflection. Would you implode? Fall to the floor thrashing your arms and legs, foaming at the mouth? Have a complete and permanent mental and emotional breakdown? Oh to see yourself as others see you. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:34 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "...the inhabitants thereof have no alternative but to fight for their rights." Yes, such brave "fighters" your Muslim heroes are, Reza. Taking 6-year-olds hostage on their first day of school, starving and torturing them for three days and then shooting them in the back as they flee in terror. You must be so proud. . Lisa, New York | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:38 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reza, "Muslim lands" is a racist/bigotted term. And you said this in public for all to see? The emperor has no clothes. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:44 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa, I wonder if Reza would ever admit to being "humiliated and subjugated" by a$$holes who do that sort of thing to children? It seems to me a tiny bit of introspection would reveal the real source of humiliation and subjugation. I also wonder why the Reza's of the world feel that land once held by Muslims, centuries ago, must remain that way forever? Should not then the Europeans, and by extention, all Christians not then lay the same claim to the Levant? That is one of the things that the Crusades were about; reclaiming land that once belonged to Christians. While we're at it, perhaps the Americas ought to be returned to their ancestral owners. And how about northern India? Should not the decendants of the Moguls be annihilated? Maybe the Picts, Scots, Angles and Saxons ought to be sent packing from England leaving only the Celts, unless of course, we can identify the group that occupied that land prior to their arrival. Then they should go, too. I suppose that would be another source of "humiliation" for Reza's kindred spirits, should they be "forced" to swallow some basic truths about the march of history. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:13 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, can someone who is half Celtic, half Saxon just chop off one leg and be allowed to remain in England? I'd hate to think that half-breeds don't have a homeland. And I notice there is an "International Indigenous People's Day". I haven't noticed a corresponding "International non- Indigenous People's Day". When are "immigrants" going to stop being treated as second-class citizens in the country they were born in? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:22 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A bit of a complication, isn't it Paul. Tell that to Reza. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:27 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like the idea of an Internatinal non-Indigenous People's Day. I would think it would be far more inclusive than it's counterpoint. Afterall, one would be hard pressed to find any true blue, pure blooded indigenous perosn left on the planet. I'll bet Reza even has a bit of a mixture in his DNA. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:32 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reza, we need an official answer on the half-breed question, and also, can you let me know where a homeland is for atheists such as myself? And when is someone going to apologize to me for the gross inhumanity of treating me as a communist, just because some commie sickos happened to use my good atheist name? I want an apology, otherwise I'll never get over it. And I want entrance into Heaven as well, even though I don't believe such a thing exists. Gimme gimme gimme. I'm a victim. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:36 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I want financial compensation for the stress of living most of my life with people telling me I'm going to go to Hell because I don't believe in God. I want compensation from both Muslims and Christians. On behalf of all the apostates and heathens burnt at the stake, I want buckets of money. And I want an apology from the Pope. And the Iraqi people should get an apology from the Pope for him authorizing the Iraqi Holocaust. And I want a monument built for all the atheists who died in foxholes, contrary to popular myth. And I want someone to acknowledge how courageous atheists are, getting through life without the security blanket of a God. It is tough, believe me. Especially when people walk by with turbans on their head which say "I'm going to heaven because I've got a wheel on my head, even though I'm a paedophile it doesn't matter - but you with no wheel will go to Hell, even though you haven't done anything wrong that I can put a finger on". And as a capitalist, I demand compensation for all the property stolen by communists. There should be a "left-wing tax" to pay me what I'm owed in back-dues. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:44 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And moreover, it's all Reza's fault and he should be the one to pay!! NOW!!! Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:53 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And can I ask how many black American Muslims have written in to some atheist soldiers and said "thanks for your service" and "I'm sorry that the president says God bless America which must make you feel excluded" and "I will do my best as an activist to ensure that the pledge of allegiance is changed"? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:55 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When is America going to have its first atheist president? Australia has already had its first atheist PM. But then, we all know that Australia is the most intolerant country in the world, right folks? We slaughtered Aborigines like there was no tomorrow, right? That's all you know about Australia, isn't it? I demand an apology from EVERYONE. Us poor discriminated-against Australians are infuriated and we're thinking of carrying out terrorism until we get compensation and an apology and some Muslim slaves. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:58 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, can someone tell me why I haven't seen any discussion on Al Jazeera about what sort of compensation the Iraqi Jews expelled from Baghdad are due? 70% of the population. They were Iraqi citizens and had done nothing wrong. They were raped by barbaric Muslims too. When is Israel going to respond to this atrocity against Jews? Hell, as a humanist myself, I feel empathy for the Jews too. I'm going to start carpet-bombing Baghdad to kill random Arabs in response. Poor Jews. I DEMAND JUSTICE! And what about the Hindus who were ethnically cleansed from Pakistan? I'm going to kill random Muslims in Iraq for that too. And what about the Americans killed in 9/11? I'm going to kill random Muslims in Iraq for that too. Man, these Iraqis are gluttons for punishment. LET'S ROLL! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 3:05 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And where's the apologies from the people from northern USA for this gross racism? http://coldfury.com/index.php?p=4831 He's got some documentation, too. If ol' Zeller is a bigot (and exactly how forthright can it be to accuse him of such in response to a speech wherein race wasn't mentioned even once?), then what are we to call all these people who can't seem to restrain themselves from crying "racist" every time they hear an older conservative white male with a Southern accent open his mouth, hmm? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 3:08 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allahu akbar THIS Reza!! My white Irish ass honey. Monica-Philadelphia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 3:16 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is it not obvious that your leaders (and your news media) realise that your society is in the terminal stages of decay and cannot survive? They have accepted that the triumph of Islam is inevitable and are doing their best to minimize the trauma associated with the final destruction of your current corrupt system. Why do some of you refuse to face reality and accept the inevitable? Why do you risk the waste of your lives, and those of your children, in a futile struggle to turn back the clock? All of the West's corrupt, unjust, man-made systems of governance will fade into the mists of history and be replaced by submission to the commands of Almighty Allah (swt). A new, world-wide Islamic Caliphate will cover the Earth and a strong, just Caliph will rule in compliance with Islamic Sharia. It is the dawn of a glorious new world. The road to peace lies wide open before you. Simply stop waging war against Almighty Allah (swt) and stop abusing and oppressing Muslims. Embrace Islam now and live in peace in submission to the commands of Allah (swt). Be a part of the bright, shining, Islamic future, not a forgotten part of a dimming, fast-disappearing past. Your grandchildren will be Muslim. Allahu akbar Reza | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 3:32 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reza, have you seen all the contributions to science that white people have made? Us white people are the smartest people on the entire planet. Isn't it about time we were treated with respect? Arabs created the Koran, a book written by barbarians for barbarians. White people invented the industrial revolution. I'm proud of my white ancestry, as proud as any black is of their long history of murdering each other, long before white man turned up and taught them how to read and write so that they could write down how many of the other tribe they managed to kill. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 3:44 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Monica, you're white too? Welcome sister. Let's celebrate our whiteness together. I use palmolive soap to keep my skin looking whiter than white, what do you use? And what colour hair do you have? I'd like to see how it looks against your white skin. It must look spectacular. Have you seen all the variety of hair colours and eye colours that white people have? There's an endless array of mix and match, a smorgous-board of beauty. Unlike some races who shall remain nameless (ie blacks) who are all basically, black everything, or Arabs who are basically, brown everything. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 3:48 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When are the Palestinians going to thank white Australia for liberating fellow Arabs in Iraq? I haven't heard a bloody word from them yet. Waiting, waiting, waiting. Not just any old whites either. We're Anglo-Saxons, the greatest of the great. Although obviously I'm not taking anything away from my Celtic sister. After all, Ireland and Australia have a long history of liberating strangers. We always fight together. Both of us members of NATO. Well. Well. Hmmmmm. I'm missing something here. Come to think of it, why are the Irish always going on about the potato famine? It was a technical problem! The Irish were so stupid they only had a single crop. Fortunately freedom of speech and capitalism fixed that problem, and they've never been single-crop since. Where did all this "hate Britain" stuff come from? Same as the Americans with their "independence" thing, always trying to stick it to the British. Since when did the Brits become the whipping boy of the world? BTW, as far as independence is concerned, can you say FRENCH MILITARY VICTORY? Bloody racist American bigots. Show some respect for the people who brought you the industrial revolution. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:08 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul...now you are doing it again! Getting into your sophisticated, hilarious humor. To all those whose first language is not English: Paul is a pretend racist to make his point. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:09 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, what race are you? You're extremely smart, so I assume you're white? I've never actually asked. I know you're a woman, so that makes you a little inferior to me, but race is the most important aspect of intelligence in my experience. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In actual fact, can all the white people please stand up? Need to be at least 7/8 white, we don't want any darkies here. We need to form some sort of special club to make sure we preserve our white culture. It is under threat from Chinese takeaway food. I think we should return to the good old days of boiled potatoes and boiled vegetables and boiled meat. Those were the good old days. Our ancestors make me so proud. They used to actually dominate the spice trade, but did they use the spices to do Thai-style cooking? No damn way! We're good Anglo-Saxon breeding stock, and no damn way did we use any of that Jap crap. Only the infidels use crap like that. We need to roll back that pizza stuff too. I never trusted the Eye-Ties. Not true whites. They were enemies in WWI and WWII too I think. Something I've never forgotten and will never forgive. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:21 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the British did a much better job of running Iraq than locals such as Saddam did. Of course a lot of the locals were so racist that they didn't realise that. But what can I say? Arabs were never known for their brilliance. Never produced anyone smarter than er um, let's see, how many centuries do we need to go back, um, what about Mohammed, he was pretty clever at the caravan-robbing and mass murder trade, wasn't he? That's something we can all be proud of, isn't it? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:28 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And when are you Americans going to apologize for expelling all those Americans to Canada just to get the numbers up so some minority bigot could claim majority support? Did the bigot bring anything particularly good with white male landowner rule? Just how bloodthirsty was this tyrant anyway? I heard about the "tar and feather" thing. So much for the Geneva Convention, eh? Do you guys still laugh at how funny it was to watch fellow citizens being tortured? Yeah, must be a barrel of laughs. Are you related to the Arabs by any chance? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:39 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And when are you Americans going to apologize for encouraging Britain to release her colonies so that tyrants like Saddam could come to power instead? Or so that the Indians could elect communists and align with the USSR, while Pakistan could become a terrorist state? Get some critical thinking skills you nutcase religious whackos. The only decent people in the entire world are Australians. We are the one true force for freedom. Can any Americans do this: http://www.ezydvd.com.au/item.zml/3671 While I personally can't do that, and in actual fact, I'm not even brave enough to leave the safety of my keyboard, the fact is, I get to inherit all the glory of my predecessors, and none of the dodgy stuff. That's what makes me personally great. No personal accomplishment required, I inherit greatness from the colour of my skin and other things. It's so much easier than actually like WORKING like the Taiwanese and Japanese slaves do. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:43 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reza The people you idolize and call freedom fighters are nothing but criminals and killers. They personalize the face of evil on earth and the immense harm they do to islam can not be measured. They are the lowest form of life and can not be called human beings, for they are truly not human. And you are - as I'm sure you will realize some day - an advocate for the devil himself. These innocent children and others like them around the world have died because of terrorism. Without terrorists the world would be a safe place. Practically all fighting and killing today is taking place because of your brainwashed ways of thinking. It is the root of the evil. You and the likes of you have to snap out of it and start using your brain to think with, not just to feed crap into. Maria from Sweden | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:57 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maria, when is Sweden going to stand up and join the free world via NATO instead of bludging off the US global security shield pretending that it can defend itself from an enemy like the USSR? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 5:00 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, you can see the entire clash of ideas taking place here: http://iraquna.blogspot.com/2004/08/its-doctrine.html The "blame white Christian American males" PC-Nazi victimhood-of-minorities ideology has been smashed. The fact is that modern America is so lilly-white that it really is the embodiment of perfection. Although I would say the Australian Liberal Party is even more perfect. Basically no religious nutcases there. Or quite frankly, Taiwan's government probably has the perfect ideology. No legalized racism. No religious dogma. Just happy free people. At least for internal use. For external, you need Australia, a country that has traditionally gone overseas to liberate others. Empathy as well as freedom. This is the final outcome of our struggle to determine peaceful civilization - secular humanism. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 6:04 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, there are two competing ideologies: secular humanism, for use by atheists who think that God didn't create the universe, because otherwise who created God - Occam's razor suggests God should be eliminated. humanism, for use by people who believe God created the universe, based on the fact that this HUGE universe exists, and such a large-scale engineering task would unlikely to appear out of thin air 15 billion years ago as some sort of "accident". Both arguments are very good. There's nothing wrong with believing in God, and belief in God will satisfy a psychological need specific to homo sapiens which naturally worries about life after death, unlike other animals. This is due to a specific physical thing in our brain, can't remember what it is. So long as you don't assume that God interferes on earth, e.g. in response to prayer, God is a harmless concept which helps people relieve their natural fear. It is dogmas that are a problem (including "these truths are self-evident"), not God. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 6:16 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another important concept is GOD NEVER REPLIES OR TALKS. This must be drummed into people so that people don't later say "God told me to go and kill 10 people as a sacrifice so that there would be peace on earth" or whatever serial killers normally come up with. Imagination can be dangerous. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 6:19 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, there is an extremely important thing that will unlock the whole problem with Islam. Someone needs to say "The Koran is a guide only, it is not a copy of the book in Heaven". Once people stop treating it as sacrosanct, reform is possible. Can you tell me if YOU think the Koran is not a copy of the book in Heaven? I believe there are some references in the Koran to the sun going around the earth and doing very strange things like that. This is what ended the Christian dogma and allowed reform - when the scientists discovered planetary motion. You need to find something in the Koran that YOU can say "I definitely think that bit AT LEAST is wrong". It can be planetary motion, or it can be hitting women with a green stick. YOU just need to acknowledge that the Koran is imperfect, and the rest will follow. What's your answer please, sir? If you insist that it is a copy from heaven, then you will teach your children the same thing, and they will believe it, and there is a percentage chance that they will follow it word for word, and infidels will be slayed and women will be hit with green sticks. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 6:26 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your grandchildren will be Muslim. Your grandchildren will be free. The New Caliphate will be nothing more than scary footnote on the road to freedom, a temporary weirdness that passed on by, sort of like our Father Coughlin or the Kingfish. Get used to it. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 6:58 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I also wonder why the Reza's of the world feel that land once held by Muslims, centuries ago, must remain that way forever? Should not then the Europeans, and by extention, all Christians not then lay the same claim to the Levant?" The argument is that Islam is more modern than Christianity and replaces it. Christianity and Judaism (and Zoroastrianism) are seen as obsolete and no longer worthy of any respect. Like a 20 year old computer. So the Christians are not entitled to own Greece or Anatolia or the Levant or Egypt, even if these were once occupied mainly by Christians. Marxists have a similar attitude but include Islam on their list of obsolete religions. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:22 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your grandchildren will be free. " Freedom means thinking for yourself and making your own decisions. Not everyone likes that. Many people prefer to be told what to do, as then they can be sure of being right. It would be interesting to know what proportion of the population in various countries does actually want freedom. Clearly some, like Reza, prefer a complete set of instructions from above. The number voting in democratic elections may give a clue. I suspect that teaching methods in schools have a big influence - if school consists of learning a lot of stuff by heart that is simply given out by the teacher, the children will grow up as adults who do not think for themselves. Family influence matters too, of course. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:28 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maria, can you read the following and comment please? http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=364 Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:35 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I use palmolive soap to keep my skin looking whiter than white" With my newfound sense of pride in skin colour, I've started experimenting with tippex/liquid paper (you know that white paint that you use if you're writing something with a pen and make a mistake?). Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:50 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Australian Prime Minister in 1989, Bob Hawke, an atheist, wept as he described the Tianamen Square massacre. They were his children being massacred. And mine too. Does anyone know what Al Jazeera said about it? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:57 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Freedom means thinking for yourself and making your own decisions. Only if one wants to be good at it. I can watch the sheep run as a herd right here on these blogs. Slang gets currency on Instapundit or Glenn Reynolds and it's all the rage, and then it goes away until somebody comes up with a new conspiracy theory that gets traction, a new derisive term for liberals, etc. You could watch it in the speed with which the Bushies transferred their arguments about Howard Dean directly to John Kerry, had to go along with old stuff until somebody came up some new stuff applicable to Kerry. Watch how fast the "SwiftVets" controvery dies to background noise and the attack switches directly to his Senate testimony in '71. Bushies will be telling us en mass that the thing about the medals isn't really important, just as soon as somebody they'll follow steps up to the lead on that one. It'll still be there, everybody will remember Jane Fonda (which didn't come up with Howard Dean) and there's still that doctored picture out there that shows Kerry sitting with Jane Fonda at an anti-war rally. It'll still be background noise, but they'll mumble it and then say it's not important--there's the Senate testimony to distorty now. And they'll believe it. Doesn't mean they're not free to pick which goat to follow. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:58 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, anyone who sends millions of South Vietnamese allies into communist gulags by lying about widespread and sanctioned US war crimes needs to be hung. Anyone who votes for Kerry does not have a soul. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:01 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See, it's starting already. Check out Paul Edwards' comment above. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:12 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, I don't need to say anything. Listen to the man for yourself... http://www.wintersoldier.com/audio/kerry2.mp3 Only in America would a self-confessed war criminal get to run for president. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, That's a 31 second tape. That was more than a 31 second speech. This has been edited to twist it out of context. In short, it's an intentional lie. Now, mind you, I'm not all that fond of Kerry, but I object to that tactic even when used to portray my enemies. You got anything where he "confessess" to sending "millions of South Vietnamese allies into communist gulags by lying about widespread and sanctioned US war crimes"? Or is this just more of your standard "bait and switch" type of argument? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:29 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, it's all documented here. Let me know anything that isn't covered. http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=330 Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:32 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:34 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll expand on that. When you cite to something not presented as an argument, you pretend that you actually have an argument there, somewhere, and that it is valid and true unless and until it is disproved. I'm not accepting your pretenses, either of them. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:37 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The road to peace lies wide open before you. Simply stop waging war against Almighty Allah (swt) and stop abusing and oppressing Muslims. Embrace Islam now and live in peace in submission to the commands of Allah (swt). Be a part of the bright, shining, Islamic future, not a forgotten part of a dimming, fast-disappearing past. Your grandchildren will be Muslim. Allahu akbar" Reza, you and people like you are the problem with modern islam. You might read the Three Conjectures because islam stands at a crossroads between survival and extinction. I shudder to think of the number of deaths on your side if any senario in the Three Conjectures is forced on us. We refuse to surrender to the will of allah. We refuse to follow your god. We refuse to comply. So now what are you doing? Preparing to murder some old men/women and children perhaps, because you're cowardly when it comes to fighting a real war? Face it, islam isn't a good neighbor in most cases what with the sunnis killing the shites, clan on clan violence, honor killings, etc. What kind of religion sponsors things like that? Not one I would want to belong to. "...stop abusing and oppressing Muslims. " Tell that to those Russian school children who were shot in the back when they tried to escape. Tell that to those young Russian girls who had been raped by your oh so (not)brave muslim warriors. Tell that to the Christians in the Sudan who are being oppressed by the muslim Janjarweed thugs (rapists, murderer, and looters). Look at a muslim crosseyed and you get accused of abuse. Let a muslim rape, murder, and pillage and it is okay because they do it against those they find to be infidels. Reza, I am an infidel. Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:42 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have provided the link with the answer, I don't know what more to do. It's a bit large to cut and paste. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:47 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello to our British allies. I would like to apologize on behalf of my countrymen for so many of them calling you "pommy bastards". That bigotry has got to stop. And I'll also apologize on behalf of my US allies - sorry for calling you "limey bastards". And I'm sorry for the vile magazine called "The Southern Cross" that Australians living in the UK are responsible for. And thank you so much for having the balls to stand up to both Hitler and Stalin when they jointly invaded Poland in 1939. The free world needed you, and you responded magnificently. You bore the brunt of the pain that the Luftwaffe could dish out. It didn't go unnoticed. Thankyou so much for my freedom. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:50 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The question was this: "You got anything where he 'confessess" to sending "millions of South Vietnamese allies into communist gulags by lying about widespread and sanctioned US war crimes'?" If you can't understand the question, then that's not my problem. The answer is simple. It's a "yes" or "no" type thing, not a large cut and paste operation. You got that? Where is it? Just cut and paste that part. You don't know how to answer a "yes" or "no" type question? That's not my problem either. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:51 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, of course he doesn't confess to that. He only confessed to the war crimes, and allowed public opinion to do the rest (ie withdraw US air cover so that NVA ***tanks*** could go unopposed into South Vietnam). Some people were gullible enough to believe that he really was a war criminal and he regularly committed war crimes. They were probably gullible enough to believe he was in Cambodia on a Rambo mission too. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:07 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't be absurd. Kerry never even used the term "war crime" on that tape you linked to, much less confessed to being a criminal. A conclusion that the orders he was given to execute were contrary to the laws of war and the Geneva Convention (whether the conclusion was correct or incorrect), does not supply the extra step to the conclusion that he was confessing to being "war criminal". Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:13 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And, the further conclusion that the testimony of one angry young soldier swung the Vietnam war is likewise absurd. That argument only appeared when Kerry became a viable contestant for Bush's job. Nobody gave him that much credibility for influence and power over the Vietnam policy these last 35 years. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, he said he took part in actions that were contrary to the Geneva Conventions. That is the definition of a self-confessed war criminal. Regardless of whether his confession was ACCURATE or not (most likely NOT), that's what he said he was. "That argument only appeared when Kerry became a viable contestant for Bush's job" Wrong, wrong, wrong. All that you are seeing now is a continuation of a debate that happened way back then. Only now we have the benefit of hindsight. Before he was saying how the commies were quite nice people, and we had no way to disprove that except by reference to the sadism that normally accompanies communism. Please read the link I gave you. It has links to a fisking of his 1971 testimony. It is enlightening. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:24 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, he said he took part in actions that were contrary to the Geneva Conventions. That is the definition of a self-confessed war criminal. No! It is not. "Contrary to" does NOT mean, "prohibited by". That's something different. Things that are prohibited are crimes; things that are "incompatible", or "contrary to" is a judgement call (and here I can question the judgment of an angry young soldier), but that's not an admission of a criminal act. You need to brush up on your English. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:28 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, I think that belongs in the same category as the Arab condemnations of suicide bombing that go "we condemn this BUT insert political grievance here". The intent of the message was to put an American face on Soviet propaganda. Even though John Kerry hadn't committed nor seen committed any war crimes. All that was actually happening in Vietnam was a noble attempt to keep the South Vietnamese people out of gulags. It would have worked had the US not withdrawn (for no reason) US air cover. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:43 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The intent of the message was to put an American face on Soviet propaganda. So, now you're implicitly accusing Kerry of being more than just a pissed off kid with some face time before the Senate and an opportunity to indulge in some hyperbole on behalf of his political position. Now he's a Soviet agent, an "American face on Soviet propaganda. You're getting more absurd by every post. And, wandering all around the room looking for arguments, getting way off the subject, which was that, by your own admission, "no" you didn't have any evidence to back up your assertion that Kerry sent "millions of South Vietnamese allies into communist gulags by lying about widespread and sanctioned US war crimes." You were just blowin' smoke there, and now you're wandering all about trying to get to a point where you can argue something else. I'm losing interest; sun's up; day's pleasant. You're on your own now. Bye for now. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:51 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reza, I suspect that you would encourage people to do this to the children of infidels: "One child would not stop crying, and a man said he would shoot it. He said, 'If this noise doesn't stop, I'll shoot you.' " The terrorists rarely spoke, saying only that they wanted Russia out of their country. Tanya, 14, was slapped across the face when she tried to drink from a tap in the lavatories. "The man went crazy, he hit me and tugged the top off the tap so I couldn't drink any more. All around me, people were taking off clothes, peeing on them and trying to suck off the urine. Little children were tearing off the leaves of plants and eating them - they were so hungry. "One little boy, about seven, stood naked with urine running down his leg. He was stuffing rose petals into his bleeding mouth from one of the bouquets the children had brought for the teachers. He was shouting, 'Mama!' She couldn't hear him. She was dead." One 15-year-old boy spoke of how the older boys and men were separated and given "chores". "We had to gather the bodies of those who had died when they took the school and throw them out of the windows. Then they wanted us to board them up. "I carried the body of a little girl and threw it out of the window," he said, tears rolling down his cheeks. As he threw her, he decided to try to escape, and jumped out of the window, too. "I knew it might be my one chance. "When I fell, I saw her dead body lying there, so I took off my T-shirt and covered her face. I smashed my leg as I fell and I knew it was broken so I crawled, dragging it behind. I squeezed myself behind a wall, with the bodies. And I just lay there and waited. I know I dozed although my leg was sore." Inside the gymnasium, the hostage-takers, their patience wearing thin by late afternoon, began punching their hostages and butting them with rifles. Volodia, 16, who had taken her younger brother to school that morning, said that one remained aloof. "He sat reading the Koran. He never lifted his head. I whispered to him, 'Would we be killed?' But he just said he had nothing to do with it. "Some people said that the older girls who were dragged into another room were being raped. We could hear cries, but then, so many were screaming and crying, that it was impossible to know." Their ordeal dragged into a third day and then reached its climax. As the first bomb exploded and the gymnasium ceiling caved in, the terrorists lost control of the situation. Diana Gadzhinova, 14, and her sister, Alina, 12, had been lying on the floor at the time. "There was a massive explosion in the yard," said Diana. "Then there was shooting. [My sister and I] stayed where we were, lying on the floor. But, suddenly, there was another explosion above us and part of the ceiling fell in. People were screaming. There was panic. They were running everywhere. No one knew what was happening. "I looked up and saw some children lying o Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 10:01 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, "some hyperbole" My god. In left-wing-speak, accusing the entire US armed forces of systematic war crimes is morphed to "hyperbole". I can remember the times when that sort of thing was called treason or sedition at time of war, and the perpetrator would be hung. We've become so tolerant as societies that we now tolerate Goebbels-like propaganda from our own people. Forget about bombing Al Jazeera to stop the incitement. Just switch on TV. Ye gads. Help. Someone help me. If this world becomes any more bizarre I'm going to explode. Hand. Face. Hand in front of face. Can it be? Yes. No. Maybe. Is there any objective truth in the world anymore? Are we living in some sort of virtual reality Matrix-type environment? Can we at least free the rest of the world from state slavery before we completely disappear up our own arses? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 10:04 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What happened to the concept of sedition? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 10:11 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, is everything I said in this blog comment true? Anyone else? I remember that story about the king who ended up drinking the potion that made him crazy so that he could fit in with everyone else who had already drunk it. Either I'm right, or Chomsky's right. Can I have a show of hands of who is on my side? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 10:31 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've often suspected that Reza is a provocateur and doesn't believe a word of the nonsense (s)/he puts out there. Bridget | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 10:44 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I've often suspected that Reza is a provocateur" It does read like a parody. OTOH I remember Marxists talking the same way when the USSR was still active. Capitalism was about to collapse bla bla. Communism was the wave of the future. Our grandchildren would be Marxist-Leninists. Miserable bunch of killjoys. Don Cox | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 10:57 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What happened to the concept of sedition? The Alien and Sedition Acts expired by their own terms in 1801. What happened to the concept of a statute of limitations? Why aren't we discussing Bush as if he were still a drunken party-boy and a general wastrel if we're going back to the `70s here? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:08 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry is a Traitor and a War Criminal my his own words. Then there is this. "As a spy chief and a general in the former Soviet satellite of Romania, I produced the very same vitriol Kerry repeated to the U.S. Congress almost word for word and planted it in leftist movements throughout Europe. KGB chairman Yuri Andropov managed our anti-Vietnam War operation. He often bragged about having damaged the U.S. foreign-policy consensus, poisoned domestic debate in the U.S., and built a credibility gap between America and European public opinion through our disinformation operations. Vietnam was, he once told me, "our most significant success."" Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:09 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, "Why aren't we discussing Bush as if he were still a drunken party-boy and a general wastrel if we're going back to the `70s here?" Everyone has faults. How did this particular fault of Bush impact his political choices/decisions and how is it likely to in the future? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:14 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've got it! He'll probably go soft on drink driving offenses. Change the law to reduce the penalty for drink-driving. Or maybe he'll provide free booze at motorist rest stops. Or maybe he will do the reverse, and crack down heavily on drink driving to show that he is a changed man. Can we tell from his voting record which way he went? Did he authorize booze for the special forces in Cambodia? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:18 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C - that's a big laugh. YOU asking a yes or no question! When you've proven in the past that you are unable to answer a simple question yourself. Yes - it's the 'stupid woman' rearing her ugly head at you again. For Reza: Phhhhpppppptttt. That was some air escaping from my white Irish ass in your direction. Monica-Philadelphia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:22 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How did this particular fault of Bush impact his political choices/decisions and how is it likely to in the future? That one's too easy; I'll let somebody else handle it if anybody's interested other than you, on the grounds that that's way too easy. "When you've proven in the past that you are unable to answer a simple question yourself." Monica-silly from Philly, Finding your questions too stupid to bother with doesn't mean I can't answer them. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:27 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, the question of John Kerry's faults (lying about US war crimes) is also easy to answer. He spent his whole life trying to undermine the US. He seems to have only gone to Vietnam for 4 months and 11 days (faking injuries to keep it short) in order to help him in politics. He has all the makings of a Soviet agent. I can't see that he did anything in his career that would indicate that he behaved any different to what would be required of a Soviet agent. BTW Anonymous, is the reason you're after a Marxist revolution in America because you pine for the good old days of the American revolution, so you're just after a revolution, any revolution? Can I suggest a revolution in thinking, such that the Burmese people are freed from state slavery? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:37 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He [Kerry] has all the makings of a Soviet agent. Ain't gonna let go of that are ya? Okay, I'm happy to leave it there. You're going lunatic again, and I'm cool with that. Besides, my trip back to the house is pretty much up. I've gotta go to the parts store and get some car parts. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:43 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul: "Louise, is everything I said in this blog comment true?" Sorry Paul. I'll break it to you as gently as I can, but I don't read but a fraction of what you write. You're way too prolific. What I call verbal diarrhoea. Are we still friends? Lee: "Why aren't we discussing Bush as if he were still a drunken party-boy and a general wastrel if we're going back to the `70s here?" That describes most of the folks I knew back then. It was the '70s, after all. After all that heavy political stuff from the 60s, people just decided to recharge with a whole lot of partying. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:51 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, the man said that the Vietnamese can't tell the difference between democracy and communism. Sounds to me like he thinks freedom is only for white people, not yellow people. Since when did such blatant racists get the Democrat ticket? Isn't this what George Orwell wrote about? Left-wing spinning the Republicans as the intolerant racist party, when as far as I can see, they can't come up with a single intolerant racist Republican. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:51 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I think you'll enjoy it if you read it. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:52 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, expand the number of hours in a day, and I might. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 11:54 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Edwards, i dunno if u being sarcastic.. ill assume not. England will always lead the fight for freedom from tyranny. In WWI and WWII the cream of generations fought and lost their lives for other counties , and today in Iraq doing the same thing. We never asked for anything in return and returned liberated land back to its original owners. As did the US. UK/Australia/US alliance ownz The hijacking of the school only sharpens our resolve in the ME, it highlights the sadistic barbarity of the islamo-fascists, those poor children didnt deserve to be swept up in their hatred. My condolences to all the Russian families of this awful tragedy , truly heartbreaking bepp | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:08 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- bepp, no, I wasn't being sarcastic. I am trying to comprehend how the US, UK and Australia can only have borderline 50% in favour of ending a holocaust. The vast majority of people in all 3 countries are nice and friendly people, and help others within the country. They have a sense of civic responsibility. But when a holocaust is happening overseas we can only muster 50% support. I cannot understand how the other 50%, who I know, can be humanists when interacting with me, but sociopaths when it comes to Iraqi women being raped etc. I would like Australia to be divided between sociopaths/non- sociopaths rather than continue this state of affairs. But Australia is too homogenous to do that. It is possible to divide America and Canada on those lines though, so we can get one non-sociopathic country out of it. Here is the formula: A Trade. Mass., Vt., Maine and Conn., N. H., R.I, and N.Y. for Saskatchwan, Alberta, British Columbia and the Yukon. The USA gets more Land the Peoples Republic of Canada gets more people. These lefties appear to be unwilling to think for themselves. Instead of engaging me in debate, they seem to prefer to wait until a journalist comes out with the "official Marxist spin", and then send me that article instead. One of them said point blank to me "there's more to the world than the raping of women". Sure. But surely ending holocausts are the number 1 thing on the agenda, even if they're prioritized as part of "foreign aid"? Clue me in. I'm going nuts. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was the '70s, after all. After all that heavy political stuff from the 60s, people just decided to recharge with a whole lot of partying. Bush was two years behind Kerry at Yale. Are we declaring that two year difference significant for any reason other than we want to? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:29 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm going nuts. No kidding. Sorry about the cheap shot but I hate this stuff. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 1:41 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've found out an explanation. It is racism according to this: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/580vwath.asp But I think he's probably got it wrong there. It's class hatred. They hate rich people, even though the rich people haven't done anything wrong. They're insanely jealous. I've heard the term "rich cunt" so often in Australia. No-one likes tall poppies. That hatred should end and be replaced with a respect for those who contribute the most to society and provide employment. And the fact that 50% of the country is willing to see Iraqis die in a civil war in order to get the rich out of power, is beyond the pale. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:14 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to say I think John Kerry did not act honorably during the post war days. And I have very serious problems with that. I think he was just naive. The best Republicans are those that used to be Democrats Paul..and the very best minds I think are those who switched ideologies twice because those are the people that understand the value of both. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, naive people don't lie about participating in war crimes that never happened. And Christmas in Cambodia is a continuation of the same deliberate deceit used to achieve a political objective of ending US engagement in the Cold War. Basically he's aligned with Chomsky and willing to use the same tactics. It's beyond naive. Way beyond. The left wing was always like that though - during the Cold War wanting to stop military spending so that they could have more welfare spending. But the numbers are too high. 50% of the country willing to sacrifice innocent Iraqi blood so that they will have more entitlements? It's phenomenal. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 2:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll have to give that honest thought Paul.(as to whether Kerry was naive) One point that supports your view is the years he spent in France as a youth. American raised kids tend to be naive early on in some ways because they have so much trust in the world. Anyway...its worth some thought. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 3:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After centuries of self-destructive behavior, Arab civilization is unable to compete in a single field of human endeavor relevant to progress. Instead, Arab societies are racing backward into superstition, bigotry and a narcotic culture of blame. They have grown so impotent in every other regard-unable even to translate great wealth into minor power-that Arabs rich and poor, educated and illiterate, are enraptured by their rare "triumphs" over the West, from 9/11 to the barbaric murder of Westerners doing the work that Arabs themselves are too slothful or incompetent to do. Ken Peters Crusader | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think Louise mistyped: "What happened to the concept of sedition?" I think she meant (because it makes more sense): What happened to the concept of sedation? BK | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 4:54 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I suspect that "Crusader" is in fact a troll. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 5:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's almost certainly the case, thinker, but ask yourself this...If the massacre in Russia had instead taken place in a school in Florida, or California, or Connecticut, what percentage of the population would be sounding just like him? JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 5:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes..There is a lot of anger out there right now. But here's what is bothering me John. Today, 'Reza' got banned from another site. On that site it was noted that Reza has several names on that ISP...several names that I have seen appear here. Earlier on, particularly on ITM...commenters have caught people posting under several names...even posting wild outrageous contradictory things....simply trolling. This particular post was also posted on other blogs under a different name. The name chosen on another blog indicated to me that the poster was intentionally trying to incite division and religious hatred. And, I just wanted to give you all a possible heads up. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:03 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Russians captured one of the terrorists who took part in the mass murder at the school. Right now he is pleading for his life. Read his comments. Click on the URL. Why should we believe anything he has to say. Why shouldn't he be turned over to the mob for justice? Why isn't al jazeria all over this? Puzzled | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, heck! Here's what he said: "Of course I pitied the children, I swear to Allah. I have children myself. I didn't shoot. I swear to Allah," he said. "I don't want to die. I swear to Allah, I want to live." BK | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, Where was Reza banned? I'd like to see the other names (s)he's been using. Bridget | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Little Green Footballs. Joe H is another name. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 7:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Reza; It's actually all right for others later to live on and permanently control lands where Muslims were once in charge, if they've been properly disinfected. Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No!! Not Joe H!! Scott from Oregon | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 8:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yup! thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They said it was a Chicago ISP..but I'm wondering about that because long ago someone thought they traced it to Iran nd then someone thought they traced it to Ireland...could be a roaming ISP. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And Brian...Be careful even when you are furious because with that last post...if I didn't know you I would say you were a racist. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:43 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We are indeed in the middle of a new World War." No, we are not. Wars are fought between governments. The people who took children hostage in Russia were not warriors. They were (and are) criminals. Mark Bahner | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 9:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Laurel writes to Alaa, "Who do you trust to speak for you? With all due respect, enough is enough." No one needs to speak for Alaa, Laurel. He speaks very well--very, very well--for himself. Mark Bahner | Email | Homepage | 09.05.04 - 10:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa: I'm kinda hoping you're not still reading the responses 'cause they're gettin out of hand, but if you are I'd like to offer a different thought about the terrorists in Russia and how it reflects on Islam. First of all there are two influences involved here and it's hard to untangle them at this point. Many Arab countries are totalitarian countries and totalitarian countries must give their people an outside enemy to hate. Otherwise the people will ask about internal affairs. They need an outside force or race or tribe to blame the internal poverty on and internal poverty is inevitable in the inefficiecy of dictatorships. Oil, unfortunately, gives a supplemental form of income that allows totalitarin governments to survive despite the clumsiness of dictatorships. The blessing of oil becomes a curse. This constant stoking of hatred for prosperous systems is enough to 'cause this hate. Islam may have nothing to do with it. The second factor is that spiritual light called forgiveness and the refusal to be consumed by hate. The spiritual insight to see that stoking hate eats up the soul. The bible warns against this and, if the Koran does as well, it may be the one thing that offsets the hate. As I read the Koran, this is one thing I seek. Mohhamed said the Koran was given to the Arabic peoples because of the special nature of their language, and I sometimes wonder if God forsaw the special challenges that the Arabic nations would face as well. Perhaps the Koran is designed to help Arabic people overcome the challenges of oil and tyrants. Only God knows God's plan, though it is inspiring sometimes to consider the alternatives. If the Koran has no provision for forgiveness, then something else may replace it. NOTE TO REZA: Read the Koran a little more. Mohammed gave us that Islam would not be used anymore during the last days. This is not neccessarily a bad thing. God is great and no doubt has something in the wings to replace it -- an upgrade so to speak. Regardless, I suspect we've seen the last worldwide theocracy -- caliphate or otherwise. Religion is only effective when it connects individuals to God and individuals build society based on how they're lifted by God's light. This of course means we have to be able to tolerate the insight each of us brings to the table -- which pretty well makes terrorists of any flavor obsolete. Turner | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 12:22 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe H. = Reza? What a stinker! JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 12:34 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Cox, You wrote... "You can only exterminate psychopaths of this kind if the condition is inherited and has a simple genetic cause. Otherwise you would kill or sterilise them all in one generation, but they will be replaced in the next. If it is a genetic condition, their children may well already be alive - Osama has a family, for instance. No good killing him and then several sons grow up and carry on the evil. But we have (as far as I know) no idea at all what causes this kind of murderous paranoia." It is so simple that it is just totally overlooked by intelligent people like you and Paul Edwards (and I am beginning to think that he is on speed or something, for half the posts are his). This IS about Good versus Evil. It goes back to the beginning of mankind. It has always been with us and always will, right up until it all comes crashing down on us. God is real. So is Satan. Sorry if you two so called intellectuals don't get that. Sorry if you just want to blame belief systems and try and sluff it all off on religious nuts. And I am most sorry that you think that sicence and intelligence alone will get us all out of it. The true God above is the one in the old testament and in the new testament (the holy trinity). That all came way before the Koran or Quran was written. And the struggle against evil is now mainly with the fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. Wasn't always that way. Satan uses anyone he can seduce and has done so throughout time. Gengis Kahn, Nero, some of the corrupt Popes (I am a catholic and I know my church's history), Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Nol Pot, Saddam, and even Osama...the list goes on and on. These are anti-christ figures...the ones who lust for power and are seduced into the dark side of our psychic. On the Good side is God above and good men below...the one true God helping his followers. Not the one who says the nonsense about warriors getting 17 virgins in heaven if they die or the one saying "here my child...put onthis bomb and go blow up some jews for Allah" (Read Luke 17:1-4 if you want to see God's view of that nonsense). The Bible is the one book of the history of humanity and of our God that has the real answers. It is the one that says examine all other books as well. It is the one through which we can voluntarily become faithful to God through faith in him enlightened through the scriptures. It is the one book of the 33,000 books and journals that I have read that is all true with no lies. God is Truth. Satan is lies and deception. Gee, I wonder which one the terrorists follow. You two just don't get it because you want to feel that we humans are in total control. No. Spiritual warfare is real and each one of us faces trials of sinful temptations every day and each one of us is capapble of evil. But truth will always win. The only way for evil to win is for good men to do nothing. Stop looking for rational reasons about these terrorists. They do follow Satan. They just don't kn Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 12:58 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know what my truth is? In 1000's of years of warfare, no god EVER showed his face on the battlefield, never, zip, nadda. There will be no jesus protecting the one side, no allah protecting the other. No budah, no krom, no enki, no enlil, no marduk, NONE. It's going to come down to devistating ass kicking weapons, and the massive numbers of them. My money is on the west. Hans solo | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 12:59 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- they just don't know it. More Iraqi's like Alaa need to come together as new men of faith and stand against the evil around them. I know of many examples of God having helped in Iraq but I also know that the good Iraqis must stand for Good as well, for God helps those who help themselves. So stand against these evil men. Suppport your government and get the word out. I know you are doing that to the best of your ability, Alaa, so keep at it and we true Christians and peoples of other faiths will keep praying for you and your people. And that includes standing against people like Reza (who keeps quoting from the Book of Duhh, chapter U). Keep the faith and pass the ammunition. Randy G. Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:03 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark, "Wars are fought between governments" There is an ideological clash between humanists and non-humanists. This clash results in state-on-state wars from time to time. E.g. Iran and Syria will be coming up soon. "The people who took children hostage in Russia were not warriors. They were (and are) criminals." They have actually been brainwashed to hate. Just like the Germans were. This is a simple thing to achieve with children. The Germans of today are MUCH different. It's simple to do the other way around too. It is actually our responsibility, as humanists, to make sure that every child in the world is raised as a humanist. Otherwise, you see the result in Russia today. We failed in our responsibilities. Let's fix our mistake. No more leaving people in holocausts just because they're not white Americans. Fix the racist attitude in America that only Americans matter. 50% voting for Kerry. Hang your heads in shame. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:17 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interesting...I posted the comments to Don Cox but because it was so long, it cut off my name at the end and said "annonymous" Anyway, that first part was me, followed by Hans Solo and then me again. Interesting athiest take, Hans, my fine space cadet. For your edification, I want you to go out and purchase the book "A Table in the Presence" by Carey H. Cash, Chaplin for the fifth regiment, US Marines (wpublishinggroup.com, 2004) and read the part about the April 10th battle in 2003 in Baghdad. You say what you want to. You were not there. The 1,000 marines who were and who went through a firestorm gauntlet not once but twice in an armored convoy will never be the same. For some new christian soldiers had prayed for 4 legions of angels to protect them during the battle and that is EXACTLY what they got. They know. You don't. God is always with us and his angels do watch over us and many who have been in battle know of his most protective hand. You obviously don't know this. You should go watch some documentaries on the six day war (hand of God)...or the parting of the red sea for Moses (hand of God), or Hezikahia and the defeat of 175,000 enemy troops around Jerusalem (God killed them all over night). No...you are just a doubting Thomas and only have your own eyes to go on. Me? God has done wonderous things for me...and he has smacked me upside my head at other times. He is real. So is Spiritual warfare. Be careful when you dis HIM, for you then unwittingly do the work of the Prince of deception. Evolution? Still a theory. And I am a marine biologist. No, Hans ...you do fly solo without God's hand in your life...and maybe someday you too will see the light. Maybe not. God is an awesome God and I will never deny that. May the Lord Bless a free and Soverign Iraq. Randy G. Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:17 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Turner, "Read the Koran a little more. Mohammed gave us that Islam would not be used anymore during the last days" Reference please. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:18 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I always love it when anyone who claims to be intellectual starts to group peoples in one nation as if they are all of the same mind... "Fix the racist attitude in America that only Americans matter. 50% voting for Kerry. Hang your heads in shame. Paul Edwards, Australia I am an american who has many foreign friends and interests and I know that we as a nation are a vast collection of peoples and backgrounds. Label all of us with one brush but you would be wrong. And can you clear the Kerry quote up for us...50% voting for Kerry? Good or bad by your take. Me? I am a democrat but will never vote for a man who is such a liar, a glory hound, a person who changes his position so many times that you never really know where he truely stands and a man whose main platforms have been "Hate Bush and vote for me and I am a Vietnam Veteran who will do for Iraq what I did for Vietnam" Oh yeah...he is in the North Vietnam War Remnants Museum as one of their greatest heros...for all the lies he told about atrocities that the navy never committed. We are liberators in Iraq, not occupiers. He is truely wacked in his thinking and a man of very little integrity and very much ambitions. And what does total power do to some? And is he ripe for Satan's influences? He is a fellow Catholic but he is one of the compartmentalized Catholics who just drag their faith out for the Sunday Masses and then put it away for the rest of the week. No, if he were a true Christian he would have the same take on abbortion as Bush. Instead, he will support the continued murder of our unborn youth. And you don't think that won't Piss off the Lord? God has blessed us but we are now playing with fire here. So what is your opinion of Kerry? Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:34 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hans solo, "My money is on the west." So long as we have the wisdom to engage, rather than watching holocausts happening and then rationalizing them away as "that's just what Arabs do". Racist and disgusting attitude. Every child, including black children in America and brown children in the Middle East, has an absolute right to be raised in a loving environment where they are not indoctrinated with hate. Make it happen, people. Fix your attitude then make it happen. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:37 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "50% voting for Kerry? Good or bad by your take" Extremely bad. They care more about sucking the blood of the "rich" to give to themselves than they do about holocausts in Iraq. Zero compassion. "No, if he were a true Christian he would have the same take on abbortion as Bush." This is your own religious bigotry. Not as bad as the religious bigotry of the Muslims at the Russian school, but bigotry nonetheless. I will ignore your religious bigotry and fix the far worse religious bigotry and racism and lack of humanism in the Middle East, rather than turn a blind eye to it. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:41 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "You should go watch some documentaries on the six day war (hand of God)...or the parting of the red sea for Moses (hand of God)" Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Keep your religious bigotry to yourself please, no-one here is interested. Do you realise that this prevalence of religious bigotry can only be found in places like America and Ireland? Australia, Canada and Britain have virtually done of this. Grow up. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:44 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, I do want to say that I am sorry I got sidetracked by some comments on the comment stream. I too feel the same horrors you feel abiut the Russian school and I do believe that many of you of the Islamic faith have in no way seen that situation as one of God's workings. It is of the workings of Satan as he has seduced many into following the fundamentalist approach and has taken the darker teachings of the Quran to a new low. I did look at the FaithFreedom.org postings and yes, they do make a lot of sense. Those of you who believe that Islam is a peaceful one must recapture that faith and clense it of all the radical elements. Not sure if that is even doable. If not, do yourself a major favor and get a hold of an arabic Bible and start reading it. You will see many parrallels to your Quaran but then you will notice that the Christian version is one of voluntary submision and one where we do find heaven through the simple acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ as our own lord and savior and by turning our own will over to him. And he is not one who says to kill any innocent one (child or adult) and he is the one who says Peace comes through Love and he is the one who will come back to deal the final blow to the evil ones of the world with simply his WORD from his mouth...IF we don't get the message. For prophesy (revelation) is a warning for us not to go to certain places and stray from his teachings and we can create heaven on earth if we turn back to Him and his WORD. If not, then he and all his followers will be the true victors. May even happen in our lifetime. Noone really knows. But I do know that He is real and he is above and that his angels do watch over those of us who believe. So hang in there. May the Lord continue to strengthen you in your efforts to get the word out to us, for we do find the truth on yours and others posts. Randy G. Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:50 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "Jesus said, He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad, Mat1230." "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?" Colossians "You see the mote Within your brother's eye, But you do not see the beam Within your own. Once you have extracted the beam From your own eye, You can remove the mote From your brother's." Remove the mote (intolerence) from your own eye, first. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:56 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Psychopathy is caused by a faulty linkage between the amygdala and the frontal lobes. It can be treated with intensive biofeedback. Neither Satan nor exorcism is relevant. Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 2:00 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, Looks like I hit a nerve... "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Keep your religious bigotry to yourself please, no-one here is interested. Do you realise that this prevalence of religious bigotry can only be found in places like America and Ireland? Australia, Canada and Britain have virtually done of this. Grow up. Paul Edwards, Australia Paul...do you not read the hundreds of "God Bless You" comments to Alaa? Do you really believe your own statement that I am the only one expressing my faith here? are you really that narrow in your focus? Do you really think that God is dead or that the rest of the world doesn't care? Have you no knowledge of what is going on in China in terms of religious revival? or Africa? or any number of places, including Iraq. 400,000 arabic bibles on backorder for Iraq is a simple fact...the tens of thousands that went there in the past two years have only wetted their appetites. You who sit so smugly in your own abode in Australia talking about science like we humans will figure this all out without "religious bigotry" just don't get the bigger picture. Bigots mean what, Paul? that I am better than you? did I say that or are you just assuming that? Remember what they say about assuming. As for growing up, maybe you need some spiritual growth. Me? I have lived more than half my life and I am still growing. That never ceases. So that doesn't really hurt me. I have learned am awesome amount of stuff on these blogs. Last night was a wonderful expose on religions on another one of the response comments to one of Alaa's statements. Obviously, you didn't catch it. Maybe you can go there and start calling all of the poster's ignorant, religious bigots as well...and that they are each just the only one posting such garbage. I have faith. You don't. If I am right, you will be one of the ones gnashing your teeth upon your death, for you will stand before the real God and then spend the rest of eternity in isolation. I will live for the rest of eternity in bliss and know the kind of joy we each knew briefly as children. If you are right, death will just snuff you and me out as we die. Nothing thereafter. Just one big Void of silence as our life enegry dissapears. But didn't Einstein say that energy can neither be created nor distroyed? so where does that spark of life go when we die? There is so much out there in the scientific world that does support creation through intelligent design that it amazes me to see inlelligent people like yourself denying all of it. More and more is coming to light and yet you don't know of it. Sad. Real sad. will see if you respond tomorrow...very late and my wife will be furious again that I stayed up so late just to share consciences with total strangers again. But that is what I wish to do. To encourage people...especially people like Alaa in Iraq. Night, Paul. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 2:13 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good Grief Randy! Good Grief! I knew you and Paul would eventually get into it. I am a Christian but I was rooting for Paul on this one. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 3:21 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Seize their lands, kill their clerics, and force them to convert. Ann Coulter Anonymous | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 3:29 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Troll. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 3:35 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- randy g .. you have fallen into the trap 'i have faith. You don't. If I am right, you will be one of the ones gnashing your teeth upon your death, for you will stand before the real God and then spend the rest of eternity in isolation. I will live for the rest of eternity in bliss and know the kind of joy we each knew briefly as children. If you are right, death will just snuff you and me out as we die' the classic unprovable damnation ploy still working like a charm after all these centuries believe what you want , it wont make a difference bepp | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 3:48 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, bepp has beaten me to the punch. With this statement: "I have faith. You don't. If I am right" You have created an out-group, whereby if your religion is true, then people like me will not make it to paradise. It is a natural psychological requirement for you to be comforted by your peers. So you want all your peers to insist that you are safe in the afterlife. If your peers all say "yes, just be a Christian and you will be safe", your dogma will feed off each other. When lonely voices such as mine challenge that belief, you get scared, because if I am right, you end up dying and gone forever. Because I scare you, you burn me at the stake. You are currently prevented by law from burning me at the stake. Where do we go from here? Look, there is no proof that there is no God. There is proof that the bible is not perfect though. It incorrectly describes planetary motion. What you need to do is change your religion so that God, if he exists, is a benevolent God who will accept anyone into his Kingdom so long as they are a good person, where good = humanist. In the Muslim religion, all someone needs to do is say "I am a Muslim" to get into Heaven. This is insufficient. They need to change their religion to say that so long as people are humanists, they can get into Heaven. They need to stop the Koran being a dogma which, even has different grades of who gets into Heaven, e.g. if you drown you become a Martyr and get 72 virgins. These are not good religious thoughts. The purpose of religion is to make people behave properly, because "that's what God wants". "behaving properly" doesn't mean "drowning". You need to train people to stop being selfish and start being humanists. This is the technical solution to a technical human psychology problem. Let's do it people - by force of arms if necessary. Non-humanists chanting dogma need to either convert, die, or be pacified with a path to conversion or death. Don't let the problem go unaddressed. That is suicidal. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 4:52 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW Randy, the main reason I take the leap of faith and became an atheist and forgo the protection in the afterlife that comes from believing in God is to clear my brain to do science. Basically any event that happens on earth I will demand rigorous proof for anything supernatural. If I am approaching my death and my psychological desire for protection in the afterlife overwhelms me, then this is the religion that I will choose: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/16904 I'm thinking of converting from a religion into a suicide cult like Islam. Anyone want to join me? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 5:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding the war, I think I have it figured out now. I personally was looking for any half-arsed excuse (e.g. WMD) to go and liberate the Iraqis. So I was very easy to convince of the need to go to war. Others have a hatred of alleged greedy companies seeking to profit from the war, or various other prejudices against someone who would vote, or run for, the right-wing party. Thus, they are only concerned about bringing Bush down. The issues are irrelevant. The insane jealousy of Bill Gates makes them throw eggs at him etc. This is their only opportunity to steal Bill Gates's money, and they are doing all they can to keep the focus on theft. This bigotry needs to be replaced with a respect for the rich people who provide jobs for the poor, and donate to charities instead of spending all their money on booze, etc etc. When the left-wing greed takes over, you end up with Chavez's Venezuela, which we all know is about to go down the tubes under communism. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 6:18 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm no longer going nuts. Finally got some honesty out of a left-wing person I was debating. I've documented it here. http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=366 And they seem such nice people in person. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:53 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh yeah...he is in the North Vietnam War Remnants Museum as one of their greatest heros...for all the lies he told about atrocities that the navy never committed. The picture of Kerry in the museum is of a trip he made in 1993 along with a group of VietNam veterans (some of whom are also in the picture). It was a meeting with Do Muoi, then Secretary General of the Vietnamese Communist Party. Kerry was, at that time, working on a project (with John McCain) for gathering information about America's MIAs from the Vietnam war, and trying (again, along with John McCain) to work for normalization of relations between the U.S. and Vietnam. Sort of like the "constructive engagment" that conservatives like to talk about with Communist China. The trip was approved by the U.S. government. You people are shameless. I suppose your God forgives you your lies, maybe even encourages your lies, because you're pure of heart or some such thing, and need to tell lies to get the rest of us pure of heart too? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:43 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, "I suppose your God forgives you your lies" The specifics may be incorrect, but the concept that John Kerry was North Vietnam's greatest ally is indeed true. He is the one who said point blank that the Vietnamese people were simple and couldn't tell the difference between democracy and communism. The boat people who drowned or who were raped by pirates probably tell a different story. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 11:02 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The specifics may be incorrect, but the concept that John Kerry was North Vietnam's greatest ally is indeed true. An ex-lieutenant, only one of millions of people who protested against the war is elevated in your mind to the position of North Vietnam's "greatest ally"? You are indeed a lunatic. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 12:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, Kerry did something that no other war protestor was able to do - he put a US face on the Soviet propaganda. He was an urbane man and a good speaker. If he said there were widespread and systematic atrocities happening in Vietnam, and that he personally was part of it - then damn it, there were. Reality was that he neither committed nor saw any war crimes at all. He was in fact a war hero in his 4 months and 11 days in Vietnam, just like every other soldier he was with. They were all wonderful noble men. As were the Australians who were also in Vietnam, there to defend the South Vietnamese people against an insidious dogma called communism. Which bit don't you understand? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If he said there were. Let's talk instead about the things I do understand. You're making up stuff again. He never said the things you claim. You use truncated quotes, intentionally taken out of context and with parts of the sentences, relevant parts, deleted in order to make it sound like he said something he didn't. Besides, being articulate wasn't confined to him. And the group "VietNam Veterans Against the War" was suffering no lack of articulate spokesmen. And Kerry wasn't paid that much attention to back. You want to peg somebody who actually did change some minds on that war? I give you Walter Cronkite to consider, or maybe even Tricky Dick Nixon his own self, who had a "secret plan" to end the war, or so he said, campaigned on it, got elected on it, and then had no such damn plan, although he had managed to convince a large part of the electorate that getting the war over was a good thing. You are indeed a lunatic. Reality doesn't have much affect on your thinking. I think that's one of the more generally accepted definitions. Well, so much for lunchtime; ya'll have fun. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, "He never said the things you claim" I've already given you the MP3 of him saying exactly what I said he said. He is a self-confessed war criminal. He echoed Soviet propaganda word for word. This is not debatable. He used Marxist language to say it, so that he couldn't actually be hung for committing actual war crimes. This was then combined with Walter Cronkite who said the Tet offensive was a disaster, when it fact it was a glorious success. The VC were defeated. The South Vietnamese had won the civil war. And Nixon bombed the North until they agreed to a peace treaty. So everything had been done. The war was won. South Vietnam was a sovereign state, with its own army, which was able to defeat both any NVA tank incursions and any VC attempt to overthrow it. All it needed from that point on was money, weapons and air support, so that the SVA could match any challenge from NVA ***tanks***. The Democrat-controlled Congress refused to supply the required money, weapons or air support, saying that they saw no reason to supply such things. This crime against humanity is something the Democrats have never apologized for. They need to hang their heads in shame. And this happened in the middle of the Cold War. Unbelievable. Like Kerry said "we can't fight commies everywhere". Ok Kerry. You stick with your sick ideology, I'll stick with capitalism and freedom. Freedom isn't just for white people you racist prick. (Kerry not you). Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 1:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've already given you the MP3 of him saying exactly what I said he said. He is a self-confessed war criminal. You continue with it. It's staring you in the face that it doesn't support your claims and yet you ignore it. You like it better in fantasy land don't you? Much easier to deal with things there than in the real world I'd reckon. It's all so simple in fantasy land. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 2:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, you are correct I supposed. It has been said in Marxist-speak. He gave the impression that he had personally committed war crimes, without actually listing any specifics which would allow him to be prosecuted for said crimes. It's very sophisticated this left-wing speak. They have changed the language such that left-wing parties are known as "progressive" (when they mean "socialist"). I have completely analyzed the entire chain of logic from first principles that is causing the lefties to be shown up as the racist bigots they are, and that the majority of Arabs and Muslims are also racist bigots, using out-group psychology. The solution is staring you in the face. The problem is not with us, it's with them. Go and fix it people instead of falling for the pervasive left-wing hate that has taken over mainstream and Arab media. Kill as few racist Arabs and Muslims in the process. Most of them can probably be converted to humanists. Iraq is the best place to start, as it has the least number of racist bigots. Well, relative to other Arab Muslim countries anyway, which isn't saying much I suppose. Let's go people, let's go. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 2:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Al-Jazeera is publishing cartoons gloating and making fun of the Beslan tragedy. I used to think they were just terrorists, but now it is clear Al-Jazeera is truly evil. How can someone poke fun at and ridicule the brutal torture, terrorizing and murder of so many innocent little children and even babies? How can they do that? Do they not have even one ounce of humanity? How can these hate monsters trying to pass themselves off as journalists sleep at night? What the hell is wrong with these people?????????? My God, look at what they are doing! http://tinyurl.com/4zoqs Getting rid of Al-Jazeera would probably save many lives. It is not like they are a part of the human race, anyway. Cherice | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 2:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here you go, all the world's problems documented here with obvious solutions: http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=367 Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 3:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul; The old canard Randy G. offered is, of course, Pascal's wager. "It's a better bet to fake piety until you feel it because you win big and lose nothing either way." BUT alternative guesses about God's preferences sink the whole logic chain. Suppose God just values good works or honesty and doesn't care a fig about belief? Then the gutless, self-protecting, wagerer is toast. Etc., etc. Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 4:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul...Great. re: Your leftist friend...Now you know the problem...He doesn't see the threat as greater than that of corporations of selfish rich people. All you have to do is give him some websites which prove to him the threat. I mean...what is the point of having a forest if you can't go outside without a burka? thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 4:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian H, if anyone is scared about a vengeful God and wants to believe in God for that reason, as a safe bet, that is fine, and here is the religion to bet on: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/16904 Which covers your arse over as many religions as possible. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 5:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks thinker, I didn't think of putting it in those terms. I went back to more of my "derived from first principles" type arguments, explaining how he needs to ask some Republicans if they support Enron etc etc. Your argument is so neat. I'm shocked that he thinks I pretended to care about Iraqis for political purposes. Are people really that cynical on the left? What a terrible world they live in! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 5:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul and Brian H and others who have an interest in who and what God is... Interesting takes by you guys. I too may have assumed some stuff and I am truely sorry if I have offended anyone. Those of us are to be righteous in the Lord's words alone, not in our own opinions and I sometimes to stray from this. The Bible is clear in it's teachings about what mankind is to do. We just have trouble in interpreting it sometimes because our own egos get in the way. I do not have a problem with your athiest views, Paul, for you do have free will and can choose your own destiny. I feel sad because I think that you would be so much better off after you do pass on if you did embrace the teachings of Jesus. But that is your choice. I really don't have any plank in my eye and I know that passage very well. But in my enthusiasm to discuss things of a temporal nature, I did stray and I am sorry for that. God is clear about heaven and who gets in. It does seem that for those who do not believe in him, there will still be an opening at the end of the 1,000 years when the remaining souls who never did know the Lord will stand in judgement. We are not to know all the the Lord has in store for us but we can see that he is fair and forgiving. Not so, however, with those who kill the innocent ones (especially the children). Or with those who do other evil acts in full knowledge that they do harm other humans. You guys can debate whether God is real or not and whether your egos are big enough for you to create your own heavens. Like Grace Slick said in Jeff Airplane..."It doesn't mean shit to a tree". For in the near future we who do debate all of this will return to ashes in the blink of God's eye and He will go on and we will face the fact that there is eternity and where we will face it. I'd rather be with my Lord than seperated from him. Heard something very significant on a Christian radio program the other day and it rings true to me. "Those who seek happiness for itself will never achieve it...for happiness is a by product of seeking the Lord". That statement floored me, for I have come to fully understand the happiness I feel when seeking Hima and listening to or reading the Bible...for it makes absolute sense. I do know that I have as well put much time into seeking happiness. But life is like a rollercoaster and the highs just never last. No, but now that I see the light at the end of my life's journey, I know that it will be awesome and I will return to that state that we all knew for fleeting moments as children...one of true happiness when we have no need to put up our guard or get defensive or offensive or whatever. God is awesome and so are his teachings. We humans can sure mess the teachings up and so I soak the real ones up daily and see how I find more and more comfort in them and less and less comfort in the daily rat race of seeking wealth and toys and trying to outdo the neighbor and trying to find pleasure in all the wrong places. N Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 5:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Part II No...God is real and once you get it, it all comes very clear and spiritual warfare becomes very real. Sorry if that offends anyone or if people want to see me falling into any traps. Science...Again, I am a marine biologist. Back in 1980 I came to realize that alcohol was really messing up my life. Went to an AA meeting and heard that I needed to ask the Lord through his will to remove the desire to drink. I did so that night and....WHAM...it was gone. Never bothered me again, even when I hung out at bars with friends and drunkards. And I take that sip of wine every Sunday as my covenant between Him and I that I need never fear that again. That was amazing to me but I had no idea that He was going to pour other rewards down on me in the next several months. Without planning any of it, he lead my life so that I went down in Alvin in the Mid Atlantic to a depth of 13,280 feet (I was NOT scheduled to go, so how did that occur?)...and He put me on a Soviet research vessel off New England ofr 18 days (during which time Anwar Sadat was assassinated by fundamentalists). And He put me on a research cruise to the antarctic coast and journeys through South America where I was in heaven and hell (imagine finding yourself at dawn in a stalled taxi in a Shining Path village in Peru and then calmly getting the motor started again to leave without any harm). And He lead me to my future wife for I did ask for himn to bring a hard headed woman into my life (one has to be careful what one prays for). We met on election night in Aruba as Reagan beat Carter. And then he lead me indland to run a public aquarium. And why did he heap these rewards down on me? So that I would tell others. And so I finally am getting the message. I am not any better than anyone else for all of this. God has a relationship with each and every one of us. Some of us just choose to ignore him and not acknowledge him. But He is there. Forrest Gump is one of my favorite movies because of how he just drifts through life and the Lord watches over him. He only mentions God in one part...but you can see God's hand in all of it. I too nearly jumped off a building to commit suicide many years ago )like Jennifer) and know ho wlow we all can sink. But He has plans for us. Wonder what his plans are for you, Paul. He loves you as much as he loves me but you are not listening right now. He is there...pay attention to the small things, for EVERYTHING happens for a real reason. Everything. And so we are in Iraq to bring then freedom. That is what He wants. I don't care how many of you onthese posts don't see it or have egos too big to listen. He wants it, for he loves the Iraqi people as much as he loves Americans and Australians and the Brits and all of humanity. We do have a roll as the bearers of that torch of freedom. I don'tcare if you see it or not. Good Americans do. ANd we do pray for the innocent ones in Iraq. For Statan is also active over there. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 5:50 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy...I like you and did not mean to be harsh with you. You have a very strong interpretation of the Bible and Christianity. I have my own interprtation and mine does not necessarily agree with yours and that is OK and fine. I am certainly thrilled for you. You have an important voice to share your experiences and how God has helped you. But you scare me when you go from sharing (witnessing) ....to telling us what THE 'truth' is. Let me give you an example. I do not believe that you have to be a Christian to go to heaven. Its a big tent. Christian theologians and scholars do not agree on everything. When you tell me THE 'truth' as opposed to your 'truth', and want me to agree, I think ...that guy is trying to control me. He personally needs this for some reason. Power and control are not witnessing. I want to be me...not you. I am overly sensitive about it in this particular venue because religion is a very hot-button topic when people are killing in the name of religion and people are paranoid that someone wants to convert them. Paul can fend for himself but our Muslim friends may misunderstand you. Witness OK...but no agenda to convert (here with our Iraqi friends). thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 6:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- .or if people want to see me falling into any traps. ??? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 7:08 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "I feel sad because I think that you would be so much better off after you do pass on if you did embrace the teachings of Jesus" The most important teaching of Jesus was "do unto others as you would have others do unto you". I already do that, as far as I am aware. I have taken other people's feelings into consideration my entire life, both when I was a Christian, and then afterwards when I became an atheist. It was a relief to me when I stopped believing in the tooth fairy, then the easter bunny, then santa claus, then god, then the loch ness monster and ufos. It was an intellectual relief as I could clear my brain, forget anything my mother indoctrinated me with, then do whatever I thought best. I later found out that what I came to was secular humanism. I only learnt this term a few months ago. It wasn't taught at school. I have a question for you: Is the bible absolutely perfect in every respect, including the bit where the sun revolves around the earth? Or should it be used as a guide only? BTW, you mentioned alcohol. I've been a teetotaller all my life. I've probably drunk less than half a glass of alcohol, as various people tried to convert me, and every time it tasted awful. Chocolate milkshakes are where the action is. I have smoked maybe 10 cigarettes in my life. Complete waste of time. And I've never taken drugs. I am not against drugs, I just want them to be government-approved so that I know they've passed basic health standards. I have watched a lot of pornography though. I even care about animals. In fact, I saw a lizard caught by a cat and it was "playing" with it (torturing). I distracted the cat so that I could take the lizard away. I was once cruel to a dog that kept on coming into my yard and wouldn't take "no" for an answer. And I got revenge no a cat that had attacked my cat. And I got revenge on various flies who wouldn't take "go away" for an answer. One I personally tortured, others I feed to ants. I take one wing off the fly so that it can't get away. As far as I'm concerned, the fly is a non-humanist and deserves to die. Torture for torture. I hate flies, and as for mosquitoes, it is my plan to exterminate the species. I semi-cheated my sister out of a dollar when I was a kid, and a few years ago I paid her $20 or something to cover interest. So, do I get entrance to your heaven or not? I've never raped, murdered etc etc, unlike some people who claim to be Christians, or reformed Christians. BTW, you mentioned a whole stack of coincidences. You should learn about probability and statistics. I get them too. Law of Large Numbers in particular. I have also stood idly by at boarding school when guys claiming to be Christian hung another guy claiming to be a Christian on the clothes line in the middle of winter and then threw water on him. Admittedly one reason I did nothing was because the victim did do something wrong to someone else first. Man, where do these Chr Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 7:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man, where do these Christians come from? Anyway, that's all I can think of. Unless you go to verbal debates. I fiercely debate people, and upset practically everyone I talk to. That's why I've resorted to using the internet, because as soon as I step outside the house, all these Christians who are meant to be turning the other cheek, are in fact striking me before I've even done anything against the law. So, am I on a one-way ticket to hell or not? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 7:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, after clearing my head via atheism, one thing that I was able to ditch was "respect your elders". This was the right thing to do. The older I became, the more I realised that adults are full of shit. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 7:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get this man swinging from a rope, people. This is grossly offensive. It is racist against the 57% of Australians who supported the war (vs 36%). This man thinks we are all sheep. Only America has smart people. Fuck you arsehole, you've just created another entry on my "enemies list". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3633142.stm He also accused Mr Bush of rushing to war without a plan, calling the president's coalition of allies in Iraq "the phoniest thing I ever heard". Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 7:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, Paul..In answer to your question...It ain't my place to judge what happens to you or anyone else after death. That just ain't in my vocabulary. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You should consider wearing swim trunks 24/7 Paul, because you're constantly going off the deep end. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:09 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, I'm not asking you to judge. I'm after your personal opinion on what happens after death. Is there a heaven, and if so, what are the requirements for entry? Anyone else? What does an atheist need to do in order to get into Heaven, assuming he is not willing to stop being an atheist (but flexible on everything else)? Or are we excluded? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While I don't have any inside information on the subject, I'd be willing to guess that advocacy of genocide, carpet-bombing, and the like do not, as a rule, put a person in good stead. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A top military stategist made a presentation the other day regarding the organization of American government and military. It seems that American government is not properly configured to be the only superpower. Our government does not possess the policies, procedures, mandates, or institutions required to address the responsibility of being a sole superpower. Because the US has always been anti- imperialism, there is not a single department or bureau that bears responsibility for either "waging peace" or nation building. Because of this shortcoming, the US has struggled to find a way to make soldiers into peacekeepers and diplomats into nation builders for Iraq. After the end of the cold war, no other nation has had the capability or desire to take a leadership role. This shortcoming within the US has prevented it from assumming the lead and has left a power vacumn in global politics. His conclusion was that the US needs to spearhead an international agreement and doctrine for the displacement of malignant governments and the methodolgy of replacing said governments with ones that are satisfactory for the governed people. It is no longer adequate to simply promote democracy for the duration of the US position as sole superpower. We need to promote non-oppresive government that serves it's people regardless of whether it is democratic, communist, or theocratic. We need to either relinquish our position or accept the responsibility that comes with it and develop the international coalitions and mandates required to resolve problems such as Sudan, Chechnya, Rwanda, Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, etc. It made quite a bit of sense to me. If nothing else, it explained the explosion of world instabilities and the UN's increasing ineffectiveness since the end of the cold war. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:20 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, genocide of non-humanists is designed to protect humanists. It is the least worst option. It is defeating evil. If you prefer, I'm happy to jail them under the "UN Intolerance Act 2004". Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:20 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard, "Because of this shortcoming, the US has struggled to find a way to make soldiers into peacekeepers and diplomats into nation builders for Iraq." This is not correct. The way the US has waged war in Afghanistan and Iraq has been ***PERFECT***. I am happy to explain anything you think was done incorrectly. I understand it all from first principles. "After the end of the cold war, no other nation has had the capability or desire to take a leadership role" This is not correct either. John Howard was the most militant pro-war spokesman. You just didn't listen to him because you are racist against Australians, not allow minorities to get a fair hearing. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If they let atheists into heaven do they have to convert? Or would they be allowed to lay down on the streets of gold and pretend they're still dead? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am happy to explain anything you think was done incorrectly. They let bin Laden get away. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:29 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Genocide isn't a way of defeating evil. It's a way of becoming evil. You have a tendency to grow very glib at precisely the wrong moments. You must be a worry to your mother. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We need to either relinquish our position or. I vote for relinquishing our position. I hereby nominate The Republic of Panama for the position of sole superpower. Let the French fuck with the Panamanians for awhile. I need a second; then we can vote on it. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not if the Panamanians still wear funny hats. I won't have it. Besides, our liberal friends would probably claim the Panamanian government is a puppet regime that we installed and still control. There's just no shirking greatness, I suppose. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, we could vote the title to the French. This should confuse them. Perhaps they would then be content to be simply sit around being smug, and would quit screwin' with us. Or, they might get confused about who they were supposed to be screwin' with. Of course, they might take it to heart and try to reconquer Africa again, which would be bad. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 8:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think the French would probably let it go to their heads almost immediately, and would initiate any number of foreign adventures (unilaterally, btw), which they would then proceed to lose. They'd end up the first "sole superpower" in history in need of a rescue from abroad. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postscript: As someone who wants to keep his options regarding heaven open, I hereby repent of all my frog-bashing. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- French-bashing, I mean. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know Lee C. As you know, the responsibilities and burdens of being a superpower, I suspect, would have the French screaming to us in about a week to take it back! Paul..More importantly. You don't believe in Heaven and you are OK with that. So, what the hell difference does it make what I think? thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, "They let bin Laden get away." Manhunts are police work and fairly irrelevant. What is important is institutions. Getting Afghanistan's institutions changed without the Afghans thinking the US was invading was the right thing to do. The Afghans know damn well that the Americans haven't invaded, because they know they are ruled by warlords (and hate it). The ANA is coming to their rescue. America is training the ANA. The ANA is now kick-arse and will be asserting control over all the warlords, and they know it. Pakistani troops are dying, conquering some territory that has never been conquered. That territory is where Bin Laden is most likely hiding. But once again, it isn't the man that is required to be caught, it is the territory which would allow him sanctuary that needs conquering. The rule of law needs to arrive there, and indeed, in every spot on earth. Once rule of law is asserted everywhere, INTERPOL will take care of the rest. It's not that important. The CIA is working on it too, and have got most of the upper echelon already, by using patience rather than Gung Ho killing heaps of Afghans because they think they're being invaded. This is the new doctrine. Use MINIMAL FORCE that is required to implement REGIME CHANGE. Then let the locals do the rest. What's the minimal number of bombs you can drop on a country to change the government??? Let's see if one noise bomb can liberate Iran. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, "Paul..More importantly. You don't believe in Heaven and you are OK with that. So, what the hell difference does it make what I think?" I don't want to be in your out-group. It is scary and I may get burnt at the stake by your grandchildren. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, what the hell difference does it make what I think? He may need a friend who's in good with the Lord. Isn't it interesting that he should feel that way? Truly, no man is beyond hope. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, "Well, we could vote the title to the French" Give it to us. We know what we're doing, but don't have the power to do it, so have to call up allies. So, you can provide the muscle, while abrogating all responsibility. You can just say "following Howard's orders". We're the only people who are still "with the program" yet don't have people screaming "imperialist" at us, like the UK and US are saddled with. Pass it on to us and the left-wing is left without verbal ammunition. We can probably even arrange an atheist prime minister. We've had one before - Bob Hawke. He cried in parliament describing the Tianamen Square massacre. Australia's heart is in the right place. Check out history. And we've got the Bali bombing as an excuse for waging war on Islam. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, give us the war-fighting lead, but give the reconstruction lead to Japan. They know what they're doing too. Or if not Japan then Finland. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Separation of powers. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The French are looking better, actually. Paul is very peruasive. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "persuasive" JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:37 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here you go: Australia sets policy. America provides the muscle to implement it. Japan provides the reconstruction. Finland (neutral but interested in world affairs) selects the political actors (who must all be humanists). France approves the final setup as "OK I suppose", perhaps via the UN. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing would ever get done, I'm afraid. Paul, you have many interesting theories. I'd like to get your take someday on the P.M. of yours that disappeared. Did the sharks really get him, do you suppose, or was there something more sinister behind it? JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:44 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Australia would be the superpower under this scenario; muscle your own policies. We'll send a token force like Australia does now. Much cheaper for us. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, we don't have political assassinations here. Australians are apathetic. We have a combination of tolerance and apathy that makes us who we are. Not sure why you think nothing would get done in my "separation of powers" idea. Everything would be the same as it is already, more or less. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, send whatever you want. We'll get the muscle from the UK if not from you. I don't know why you'd make us fight with one hand tied behind the free world's back though. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:50 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Come to think of it, we'd probably get more European allies if we were the lead. Europeans are genuinely insane that they think you are an imperial power. Not so us. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everything would be the same as it is already, more or less. "Australia sets policy" must fall under the "less" heading, then. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 9:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, as I have already said, the Australian PM was the most militant advocator of OIF. The only reason you don't know that is because your liberal media suppresses it, because it doesn't fit into their Marxist Chomsky prejudices where US & UK are imperialists and everyone else is coerced. Of course the US makes its policy independent of Australia. But vice versa is also true. Don't believe otherwise. Our arsehole opposition party will destroy the pro-war stance though. If he does, take back the leadership, PLEASE!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 10:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well Paul...I don't have an 'out' group exactly. I believe that God is all-knowing and understanding with perfect compassion and empathy. Perfect love. And that the more I understand people as I live, the more I realize the complexities of life and am able to accept people as they are. That doesn't mean that I don't beieve in behavioral limits for the sake of society. And if every time I learn something new on top of what I already knew, the understandings I get grow in geometric progression, then my heavens, how much more loving must be the universe. Wow. And how easy it is to trust such an 'understanding'. I believe that God loves all of us, even after death. And I believe it was useful to have Jesus on earth to give us a glimpse of God in a manifestation that we can understand...to show us divine and perfect love. I believe that how nice your afterlife will be is a function of your capacity to trust without proof..your faith...because only when you can be open to love can you accept it. And it transforms everything to heave. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 10:04 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- last words...'heavenly bliss'. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 10:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, the fundamental concept that America is missing is that there is no such thing as "right to be an enemy" and that policy applies to the people as well. France is not an enemy, it is an obnoxious ally. At the time of OIF, their troops were actually standing by ready to go in, if Saddam used WMD. This is not the actions of an enemy or even a neutral. The French military was actually pro-war. I'm not saying that they would have been particularly useful, but it's the thought that counts. BTW, one of the main reasons that the US provides most of the musclepower is that there's very few countries able to actually project force. Most people are not familiar with the concept of going to some country a long way away in order to fight. So it isn't part of their military structure. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 10:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, "trust without proof" Trust who? I trust America's intentions in Iraq are not for oil. Europe doesn't. So do I get special privileges in heaven? BTW, very interesting to see these entrance requirements!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 10:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Remember what I said about being glib at the wrong moments? Luckily for you, both thinker and the Lord are patient. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 10:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Trust who? That is like asking, "What or who is God?". I believe everyone conceptualizes 'God' differently just like we all have different vocabularies or cultures, talents, needs, at different stages of our lives. That 'God' sitting on a cloud to a six year old is the same 'God' as understood by the scientist to be an energy field or infinite time. The more places and different understandings you can have of God within different frames of reference...the deeper your understanding. That, like the concept of 'the Word' in the Bible, these are all metaphors for the same thing that we just don't have words for...because it is beyond words. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 10:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL LOL Thanks Lee C., JohnL and Paul Edwards for the "hot potato" superpower banter. Made my night. Bridget | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 10:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glad you enjoyed the show, Bridget. thinker, I'm afraid you've heaped too much enlightenment on Paul for one evening. He must be resting now. Actually, I imagine it's morning where he lives. "Only that day dawns to which we are awake. There is more day to dawn. The sun is but a morning star." JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 11:00 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know, I know...but I'm a sucker for Thoreau, Emerson, and the rest. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 11:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is hilarious John that he just vanished after pushing me so hard to spill my guts. LOL. Only Paul. Like you said...too much enlightenment for him. Must have fried his brain....Lol. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 11:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By the way....nice quote! thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 11:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RG; You are the worst kind of fundie, certain that you know and are qualified to expound upon the mind of God. Your intolerance and arrogance disqualifies you for any heaven I'd be interested in entering. Paul; Your exegesis based on the Golden Rule is flawed, because the rule is. One example will suffice: How should a masochist treat others? The best direct upgrade I've heard is, "Treat others as they would have you treat them." But also that fails a slightly tougher test: How should you treat a suicidal masochist? I prefer something much fuzzier: "Don't abuse others, help them as much as you can." Not that I'm up to following it at all times, but in principle . . . . Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 11:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hereby declare my belief that Paul is not beyond redemption. He just needs to shed preconceived notions, open his mind to the unfathomable, and delight in its mystery. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.06.04 - 11:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any minute now, Louise. Thank you, thinker. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:24 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It could indeed happen any minute now, but it may take him a bit longer to admit it publicly. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:27 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just kidding, Paul. I wouldn't put it past you. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:28 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...advocacy of genocide, carpet-bombing, and the like, do not, as a rule, put a person in good stead. should have read "does not"...the devil's in the details JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:58 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian H, As you are the last post I see commenting on my post, I will answer you first. You wrote: "RG; You are the worst kind of fundie, certain that you know and are qualified to expound upon the mind of God. Your intolerance and arrogance disqualifies you for any heaven I'd be interested in entering." All I can say is that The WORD is what it is and if it is true as I believe it is, then there only will be one heaven. I am repeating what I know many Christians know...core beliefs. Simple as that. It is very convenient for us each to create our own idea of heaven but that would mean that we have elevated ourselves to the status of Gods (as in the Mormon Religion) and can make our own heaven. The view of Heaven in the bible is not all that clear...we have a basic understanding of it but won't really know it's true bliss until we die and enter unto it. But I will say with conviction that killing innocent ones such as innocent bomb victims or children will not get a person into heaven and certainly won't get any adult males a bevy of virgins (as if we will even want to know sex as spiritual beings...for it does mention that Jesus told the Pharasees that there won't be a need for marriage or such events in Heaven). You say I am arrogant and intolerant. Yet you don't know me from Adam. No, you want me to be arrogant or intolerant so you can say that is why I say what I say. But all I really do is try and tell you that the WORD is where wisdom really comes from. I am just one of many messengers. What other religion says to examine all religions. I am happy with the discovery that what has happened in my life has meaning and that God has a goal for me to complete. That I will strive to do. Sorry if I upset you by simply trying to share what I have learned. And if you don't want to listen...hey, it's a free country. SO don't agree with me. Buyt try not to label me for you really don't know me. And I as well will try and not label you. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:04 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hereby declare my belief that Paul is not beyond redemption. Yeah, but then again, as I recall you want to invade Iran. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:09 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am just one of many messengers. Yep, I'd say that qualifies as arrogant all right. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thinker USA, You wrote... "Trust who? That is like asking, "What or who is God?". I believe everyone conceptualizes 'God' differently just like we all have different vocabularies or cultures, talents, needs, at different stages of our lives. That 'God' sitting on a cloud to a six year old is the same 'God' as understood by the scientist to be an energy field or infinite time. The more places and different understandings you can have of God within different frames of reference...the deeper your understanding. That, like the concept of 'the Word' in the Bible, these are all metaphors for the same thing that we just don't have words for...because it is beyond words. thinker-USA" Good stuff, Thinker. I agree with your take on it. For we are never to truely know all that God is or who he is. But God knows and those of us that believe that he sent his only son down to earth in human form do get much insight from the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. And as he said...it is hard to truely follow him. And we are encouraged to do so. And so I do what I can within the limits of my own life. I do stretch out my neck a bit here and stand for Him and his WORD. Even though I know that I as well don't fully comprehend all that he is. The Bible is clear. But it doesn't cover all of our questions. And it does say that we are NOT to know all. That makes sense to me. Fathers tell their kids that when they need to and so he does say that to us his children. And so if I have said something that sounded like I have it all figured out, I am sorry for misleading some. It took me a little over a year to read the bible and I will start again, for when you read some passages several times you get more and more out of them. And as the bible was origionally in Greek and as translations can often vary, I also find it real interesting to read several of the older versions of the Bible. And I stay away from some of the newer ones, where authors have softened the message and deleted some as if those passages would offend others. God does say "Woe to anyone who changes one Jot or title in the scriptures" and I think he means it. We are not to play God. We are to try and comprehend what he is saying to us. And there is true happiness that does come as a by-product in searching for that happiness. That is really amazing to me. Your handle is aptly put, for you do think well. Randy G Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:19 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, You wrote: "thinker, I'm not asking you to judge. I'm after your personal opinion on what happens after death. Is there a heaven, and if so, what are the requirements for entry? Anyone else? What does an atheist need to do in order to get into Heaven, assuming he is not willing to stop being an atheist (but flexible on everything else)? Or are we excluded?" Here are some basic rules that God has let us know (not my words). God can't stand to be in the presence of sin. It is something He abhors. it is a barrier between us humans and Him. We humans took our free will and took on the burden of sin which leads to death when Eve accepted the idea from Satan that to eat of the forbidden fruit was good. It was the opening of pandora's box for mankind. Sin stands between each and every one of us and God. And until Jesus came to earth, there was no way for us to get to heaven. It was a concept but not a reality for all of humanity. And jesus took on our life form, grew up sinless and was taken, beaten, and cricified so that he could take on the burden of our sins and pay for them with his life and thus open the gates of heaven for us humans ( I cried like a baby at the "Passion" cause I knew what sins I had committed and what he did for me). And so we have been saved by the Grace of Jesus. He loves us all. But we do sin (even you, for there are sins of the mind as well as of the body). But we can have then washed clean or covered in white robes through his grace. Now here's where I am not clear. Does his grace cover all who know him or all who come to him and ask for him to come into their lives. I feel it is the latter. But in revelation, the door for all who never asked for him to come into their lives does seem to be open and there does seem to be mention of that second trial (at the end of 1,000 years) for all the rest of humanity. And so we will all be judged. And I am not sure as to whether there will be a place in Heaven for athiests like you. I do know that for those who verbally deny him, seperation from him for eternity does await them. And for those who worship false gods or Satan in disquise who would revel in major sins (like the killing of the innocent ones (you CAN kill a killer...just not the innocent ones)that we see by these terrorists who pervert Islam). And I do not bring all of this up on this site to try and convert Alaa or any other Iraqi. That is their own choice. I just bring up the knowledge of the WORD that is found in the bible and my belief that it is the word of God above. That is what I believe with all of my heart. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:40 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy...I had a wonderful friend who when attending Princeton seminary...answered my question.."What is a good definition of grace?" His answer..."unmerited regard". By that definition grace is available to everyone regardless of anything else. But how can you feel it or know it or notice it if you are not aware and open to it? Something can exist even if you don't know it or are unaware of it. Thank you for your kind comments. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:56 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, You wrote: "Man, where do these Christians come from? Anyway, that's all I can think of. Unless you go to verbal debates. I fiercely debate people, and upset practically everyone I talk to. That's why I've resorted to using the internet, because as soon as I step outside the house, all these Christians who are meant to be turning the other cheek, are in fact striking me before I've even done anything against the law. So, am I on a one-way ticket to hell or not? Paul, no true Christian is going to really hit you or verbally assault you. If I came off like that, I am sorry. I personally hate the internet form of communication as it is so damn easy to misinterpret what others say to you. I don't hold any grudges or hate anyone...although I do get mad at some people and wish the terrorists would meet the same fate they so relish dishing out. You mentioned earlier that you saw christians hanging another christian from a rope and dosing him with water from some evil he did. As others have said, people behaving badly aren't necessarily true christians. And you should never judge God by the acts of humans. That's our own folly or shortcomings. God has none of that. He is awesome in both his love for us and his compassion for where we go and he does get frustrated with humans (the old testament is full of his on again, off again love for his chosen people). Bruce Almighty is a pretty good hollywood rendition of God (Morgan Freeman is pretty cool as God). God is cool and all knowing and we are myopic in that we don't have the wisdom of the ages to see through time as he can see. No...we must study history to try and not repeat the same mistakes...and yet (like the movie Groundhog Day) we keep going back and forth in our generations...some know war, some know peace. Now we have this international terrorism that is a new face for Satan and he does realish this new cadre of troops. But God does win in the end. For only he knows how the end will play out. We can only fumble forward and hope to be as good as we can be and not to annihalate each other. When you realize that there is a passage in revelation that talks about nuclear holocaust on planet earth...it tends to get your attention. My hope is that, like Jonah and Niviah, we can change the outcome of prophesy. For things do line up more and more with what revelation and daniel and other parts of the Bible do tell us about the future. And I wouldn't be putting any faith in the UN, for they may be the very body that becomes the new world order that does lead to the final battle royal. Me? I want my kids to grow up safe and have children and for them to have children. And so I do come to the Lord for the answers. None of us have them. He does. Ask Him about your salvation. He is there and listening. Think about it. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:59 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- you CAN kill a killer...just not the innocent ones Broadly interpreted, this could be a problem. Who would qualify as innocent? JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:06 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, You asked... "I have a question for you: Is the bible absolutely perfect in every respect, including the bit where the sun revolves around the earth? Or should it be used as a guide only? Ah...that is the question for the ages. I personally believe what I have read inthe bible. never read about the sun rotating around the earth but then maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention. Humans wrote the bible and it is believed that they did so under divine inspoiration throughthe holy spirit. Did they write that part because at that time that was their belief? was it a bad translation? Or did someone just make a mistake? I don't know. Same for the question that many ponder about whether God made the earth in 7 days or were each of thoise days millions of years? Again...NOONE knows how old the earth really is, for radio isotope or carbon dating is nutoriously inaccurate beyond 50,000 years into the past. There are LOTS of facts that can be found in astronomy that suggest that the solar system is but a fraction of the age that we do find in the text books but hey...people don't want to rock the boat of evolution so it goes unnoticed. Lots of room for debate there. So I believe that the Bible was inspired by God and that though there might be a word here or there that might have been translated inacurately, it is truth as a whole. That includes the fact that being gay is a choice and not a gene (and that is not hateful, no matter what anyone tells you, that god hates all liars (thus all terrorists) and that he really does want us to all love each other as we would want others to love us. As for the humanism...trendy term but as God is said to have made us, I will again take my lead from him and not fromthose who would say that we can all be one big happy coca cola commercial and sing about loving each other. He knows all that sin is and in how many ways it can manifest itself. We still don'trwant to acknowledge all of that. And this is the age of the "me first and I am most important and no fault divorce (an oxymoron to real christians) and so on and so forth. But now I must get some rest, for tomorrow comes very soon and I have to get up to get my daughter breakfast in four hours. Night Paul. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:12 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John L, You ask; "you CAN kill a killer...just not the innocent ones Broadly interpreted, this could be a problem. Who would qualify as innocent?" The innocent one whould be anyone who has never done any real harm to anyone else...especially the children (read Luke 17:1-4). When we look at our fellow adults with this notion, many would differ in the definition of the innocent ones. My guess is that if they are truely innocent of any major sin towards others, those others are not to kill them. ANd that would include the terrorists who do kill by random brutality to get their message across...to bully others into accepting their terms. Wars have always and will always be fought to corral such thugs and evil men. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:19 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So Lee C., What? you never believed in anything or sopke about something that you learned from someone to others as a messenger??? "I am just one of many messengers. Yep, I'd say that qualifies as arrogant all right. Lee C. Sorry, then I guess that you too are arrogant. If you think that anyone who reads the bible is not allowed toi share what they learn with anyone else then you are truely wacked, my friend. Man, you must have some grudge against the big guy or think that "messenger" is some evil term. Sorry for your misinterpretation. Night Randy G Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:31 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian H, "How should a masochist treat others" He should ask the other person how they would like to be treated. The other people will have a variety of answers to this question. He will then say "ok, I think I'll be tolerant then and not oppose my whacky beliefs on anyone". Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:20 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "I hereby declare my belief that Paul is not beyond redemption. He just needs to shed preconceived notions, open his mind to the unfathomable, and delight in its mystery." My mind was always open. You assumed incorrectly if you assumed otherwise. If there is evidence of a God, e.g. he comes into my room right now and we have a chat, and then I take him to my local science shop (CSIRO) and ask for him to be thoroughly tested for God-like properties, I will indeed believe that a God, or at a minimum, a ghost, exists. In the absence of this, I choose Occam's Razor and say "who created God?". This is a personal choice I made to become an atheist, based on lack of evidence and Occam's Razor. Other people should be free to choose the existence of a universe as an "unlikely to have been created out of thin air" and choose to believe in a god(s). I am not saying atheism is correct. There is no evidence either way. I just happen to like the Occam's Razor theory the best. I have an open mind and am open to persuasion. WITH REPRODUCIBLE EVIDENCE ONLY. Please do not assume that atheists are closed-minded while God-believers are open-minded. That is far from the truth, and you have put me in an out-group by doing so, and one day I will be burnt at the stake by your grandchildren. This is gross intolerance, and in fact I've decided to get to you before you get to me, since you're the non-humanist, and thus I am going to drop a JDAM on you, given that Australia is the new world superpower. Why can't you be more like thinker instead? She doesn't put me in an out-group, you stinking Irish- Canuck wench. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:30 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, "Yeah, but then again, as I recall you want to invade Iran." Liberate, not invade. Where do you get off with your imperialist anti-American rhetoric? Back in your box you Marxist pig. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:35 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "he sent his only son down to earth in human form" Actually, Mary was a single mother and Jesus was a bastard. Unless you have a gynaecology report that suggests otherwise. What sort of inspection did they actually do anyway? Why did none of my Sunday School teachers go into this detail? Man, that would have livened them up. I had female instructors too. They could have given a demonstration. Who took the fun out of religion anyway? I can remember when everyone used to sit around dreaming of drowning so that they could become a martyr and thus get 72 virgins in Heaven. Wow. With a religion like that, who needs pornography? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:40 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "he could take on the burden of our sins" This is terrible, as it leads to Christians rationalizing "Jesus died for our sins - let's get our money's worth". No wonder Christians are some of the nastiest most sadistic people I have ever met. I'll take a secular humanist any day. "And I am not sure as to whether there will be a place in Heaven for athiests like you. I do know that for those who verbally deny him, seperation from him for eternity does await them." I most explicity and verbally deny the existance of God. I'm not joking, I just said "there is no God" out loud. And I hope to maintain my self-discipline till the day I die, and not fall subject to fear of the afterlife (which I am genetically predisposed to). As such, your vindictive God has placed me in an out-group, simply because of 4 words that I uttered. What's your GPS location? People like you need to be destroyed. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:48 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "And so I do come to the Lord for the answers. None of us have them. He does. Ask Him about your salvation. He is there and listening. Think about it." It's when he answers and says "go forth and slaughter the non-Catholics" that I get scared. He seems to have a bloody answer most of the time. Until we invented separation of church and state and the Treaty of Westphalia to try to keep you religious nutcases in your box. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:54 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "Did they write that part because at that time that was their belief? was it a bad translation? Or did someone just make a mistake? I don't know." This is all I require from you. The potential for a mistake to have been made. So do you think they might have also made a mistake when they said that God was a petty 5 year old child that was going to send me to Hellfire just because I said "There is no God"? "And this is the age of the "me first"" Actually, this is not true. We are in an age of UNBELIEVABLE levels of tolerance from WASPs. This is the Utopia that your stupid God promised. The meek have inherited the earth. The Australian Liberal Party has the winning ideology of meekness. "no fault divorce (an oxymoron to real christians)" I think they made a mistake here too. No fault divorce should be fine if there are NO CHILDREN. If there are children, then people should stop being selfish and instead give priority to ensuring that now that the damage has already been done (ie a child is born) they need to have the decency to provide 2 parents. Pretend to love each other, even if you actually sleep in different beds. You can go and sleep with other partners if you want to overcome the fact that you hate each other. Just do it in secret in order to make the child believe he is in a normal happy family. Do whatever is in the child's interest. The child comes first. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:04 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "My guess is that if they are truely innocent of any major sin towards others, those others are not to kill them" I committed a major sin by stating that there is no God. This upsets people because they get scared that I might be right and that when they die they will disappear. So, given my major sin of denying God (and you specified already it was such a major sin that I will not get into Heaven), do you now have the right to kill me? Who knows what evil us unconstrained atheists might be plotting, after all? Better to kill all atheists before us unrestrained barbarians start chopping people's heads off and burning witches at the stake etc etc etc etc etc etc etc blood blood blood blood blood buckets buckets buckets. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:10 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, what does your vengeful God do to Hindus who worship false Gods? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:37 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, I've got a response from another leftie. This is the one who rabbits on about obscure Asian tribes. He says my idea is good so long as I don't implement it by force of arms like I am doing in Iraq... The winning ideology is the best invention since sliced bread as long as the practitioners do not attempt to introduce it by dropping smart bombs operated by dumb men. The runner up is Mahayana Budhism which introduced the concept of equilibrium 5000 years before Nobel winning scientists and economists discovered it. It's quite simple really, you reap what you sow. The aim is not in obliterating evil because it is impossible but minimising it since it will be always present in this universe (just like inflation )- the ultimate goal is attaining a harmonious world in equilibrium and achieving it using the path of least resistance. Translated into the scientific language of 21st century economics - it's the soft-landing that matters. Whereas the winning ideology focus on the black and white righteousness, Mahayana Buddhism focus on incremental amounts of 'goodwill deposits' much like the way you accumulate your savings account. The winning ideology proposes to reform the Jewish religion because of its depiction of a vengeful God, the cost of human suffering to make this a reality is comparable to car-accidents which while regretful is unavoidable. Mahayana Buddhism warns against rushing into this because you will most probably most commit evil acts while doing this thus reducing your goodwill deposits. You will also create frictions (just like in Newtonian physics, for every action there is a reaction) that may prove unproductive in the long run. Mahayana Buddhism proposes that it is possible for the Jewish religion with its vengeful God to co-habitate with Buddhism (which advocates a benevolant God) and that there is nothing wrong with that as long as human suffering is minimised and peace is attained. Everyone clap your hands for the winning ideology. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 5:31 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And thinker, a third leftie insists that Bush is up to some nefarious activity, even though it happens to coincide with mine. He cannot understand that America is an ally, a force for good in the world. I have told him to stop his disgusting prejudice and given him a brief "history of the world". I don't think turning up late to WWI and WWII is a very endearing quality. I know how to spin the WWII situation though, if he takes my normal position on that. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 5:35 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, then I guess that you too are arrogant. If there's some logical sequence that gets you to that conclusion, I sure as hell missed it. I'd guess you just found a need to strike out, and that was the best you could come up with. Now, that's not to say I'm not arrogant; it may very well be true that I am; but, at least, I don't go blaming that trait on God. If you think that anyone who reads the bible is not allowed toi share what they learn with anyone else then you are truely wacked, my friend. Well, I didn't say that. But, I don't think you learned you were the messenger of God from the Bible. My guess is that your name ain't even mentioned in there, nor your holy status defined there neither. Man, you must have some grudge against the big guy or think that "messenger" is some evil term. Sorry for your misinterpretation. Again, that conclusion has no support, pulled out of thin air. And, unlike the accusation that I'm arrogant, this one happens to not be true. I got no grudge against the "big guy". I do, however, tend to find myself occasionally in disagreements with people like you, people who decide that they're holy enough in their own particular person that anybody disputing their interpretation of events, history, or politics is attacking the Lord, God of the Universe himself. You're kind of elevating your status there Randy; I don't see you ranking that high. And, I consider you ranking yourself that as pretty much unmitigated arrogance. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 6:13 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Liberate, not invade. Where do you get off with your imperialist anti-American rhetoric? Back in your box you Marxist pig. Ya know Paul, back when you were going on about how John Kerry had been talking in some sort of Marxist code, way back when, I started to observe that this was probably further evidence of your lunacy. The habit of reaching that far for "evidence" struck me as a little less than entirely sane. (As does the conclusion that Kerry was an agent for the evil empire--they're defunct now, you know that don't ya?-- Seems somebody would have figured that Soviet agent thing out by now--somebody a little saner than a fella thought he was gonna conquer Iran with 2,000 troops, or who took that notion about being elected "sole superpower" seriously). It seemed to me that your logic sort of went along the following lines: Kerry was a Marxist agent, which we know because he was using secret Marxist codes in his speeches, and we know he was using code because that's what Marxist agents do, and he was a Marxist agent. But, now that you've managed to interpret the word "invade" as Marxist code and thereby deduce that I'm a Marxist too.. Well, you're still nuts. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 6:27 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's what I require to believe in a god. First of all, here's what I need to believe in a ghost. I want to be able to test his IQ with an IQ test. I then want to tell him to make a photon do a loop-the-loop, violating the laws of physics. This must be done to the satisfaction of scientists worldwide, reproducible. If the ghost them claims to be god, I need evidence that he created the universe. This is historical, so he might not be able to prove that to my satisfaction. Some sort of videotape of him and his friends discussing whether or not to create a universe or not, as some sort of party trick, would be good, but not conclusive. However, what would be good enough would be if he could demonstrate a soul. I want him to zap my wife so that she no longer exists, and then zap her back to life, and I want to extensively question her to see if she remains the same person. This would satisfy me that this guy has control of my wife's soul, and I would accept him as a God. I'm curious as to whether any of these tests were done on Jesus. So far I'm still waiting for an answer on the "virgin test" question. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 6:33 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, it is revolutionary socialism that Kerry is trying to implement. These socialists must read it from a book or something. A worldwide conspiracy of people who subscribe to this "Marxist-speak", that Arafat and others do, even without the presence of the USSR. Elect Bush to wipe out this revolutionary socialism concept once and for all. Here's a revolutionary socialist spilling the beans: http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=366 It's frightening that he sold out the Iraqi people in the same way that the feminazis sold out the Iraqi women. This guy is actually an Australian Jew, and he is anti-Israel, and I have asked him the question as to whether he sold out the Israelis for the same reason. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 6:39 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, "who took that notion about being elected "sole superpower" seriously" If Kerry is willing to hand over US sovereignty to the UN, then a lesser evil is to hand over sovereignty to the Australian Liberal Party (right-wing, pro-war, despite the name). Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 6:41 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry's Catholic, not Jewish. Austrian, not Australian by one grandfather. And maybe not even Catholic today either depending on which diocese he's in; I'm not sure how much power the local bishops have to declare that sort of thing; he may be Catholic or not depending on whose diocese he's in at any particular time on any particular day. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 6:45 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I think you have me confused with another Richard if you think I am racist or religious. Also, it is not about waging war. The US can do that brilliantly. It is about waging the peace. There is no better force for displacing malignant regimes than the US military. But the US is inherently anti-imperialism and does not have any post-war planning or personnel. Hence the muck-up at Abu Grahib. There needs to be a step by step methodolody to bring peace and governance to the people once the malignant regime is surgically removed by US armed forces. An internationally accepted plan about what to do next needs to be created and a coalition (Russia, China, Brazil, India, Japan, US, AU, GB, etc) brought together to execute it. As the sole remaining superpower, it is the US's responsibility to bring together a majority of nations and agree upon an acceptable path for dealing with malignancies such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Rwanda, Chechnya, Sierra Leon, etc. Your original response was: Richard, "Because of this shortcoming, the US has struggled to find a way to make soldiers into peacekeepers and diplomats into nation builders for Iraq." This is not correct. The way the US has waged war in Afghanistan and Iraq has been ***PERFECT***. I am happy to explain anything you think was done incorrectly. I understand it all from first principles. "After the end of the cold war, no other nation has had the capability or desire to take a leadership role" This is not correct either. John Howard was the most militant pro-war spokesman. You just didn't listen to him because you are racist against Australians, not allow minorities to get a fair hearing. Richard | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 8:29 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, sorry for the confusion. I know a left-wing Australian Jew. He is always on the Palestinian's side. He wants revolutionary socialism (just admitted). He's actually sold out Jewish children on busses to get it. I'm still waiting for him to reply on that. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:02 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok, I think I'll be tolerant then and not oppose my whacky beliefs on anyone freudian slip You'd like to place God under your thumb, and the rest of us as well. Not going to happen, you out- grouper. My guess is that your wife believes in God. Listening to you seven days a week would cause anyone to turn to a higher power (and yearn for an afterlife). JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:09 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard, hee hee, racist against Australians. It's actually your American mainstream media that is socialist, and they do not want to listen to opinions from Australians, because Australia is a non- imperial power which is in favour of liberating the entire world from state-slavery, treating these countries as a "hostage situation". It is actually the Australian Liberal Party that is favour of the war (right wing), which is what is in power at the moment. The Australian Labor Party (left wing) sold out the human rights of the Iraqi people in an effort to bring down Bush and discredit the right wing both here and in America. It's an international conspiracy. They must all be reading some book where they learn Marxist language. Basically they blame people in power for everything. So if Aborigines in Australia are dying young, it is not because they're drunk as a skunk or sleeping next to diseased dogs, it's because of prejudice amongst whites. I've lived here most of my life, talking to whites, and I've never met a genuinely racist Australian (ie who wouldn't be friends with an Aborigine). But we tell Aborigine jokes, so people think we are racist. By the same token we say "pommy bastards" while we spill blood to defend the UK, and "bloody seppos" while we spill blood to defend the Americans. We just want to make it clear that we don't consider you guys our superior. We're in charge, and we're spilling blood because of a kinship with free people everywhere. Hence the confusion. As far as getting the Russians and Chinese involved, you need to convert the people themselves to humanists (either secular humanism or modern Christianity, doesn't matter), and have a humanist Russian leader. Otherwise they will be unable to ally with the free world, because they are not familiar with the concept of caring about those less fortunate than ourselves. Until then, you need to stick to governments that understand that anyone in the world who doesn't have freedom of speech is oppressed and needs to be liberated, as in a hostage situation. Try negotiating with the kidnappers first. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:12 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, "You'd like to place God under your thumb" Actually, you're wrong there. If God comes here and passes my scientific examination, then I will admit that he has superior weaponry to me, and then I will submit to whatever it is he wants me to do to avoid death. If he's anything like Mohammed, look out spree of blood, mayhem, rape and pillage! Yee ha!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, if an IQ test is your basis for capitulation, thinker may have superior weaponry to you. Submit, Paul. (I'm pretty sure she'd be willing to spare the bloodshed.) JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:24 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I'm interested in how you go about applying occam's razor to the feeling evoked by great art or a magnificent sunset? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:26 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, You are an intelligent man and I respect your views. Why is it that you are so intolerant of Christians?Why do you have to attack someone for their beliefs. I am a Christian. Would I like others to accept Christ? Of course! Will I ridicule you because you don't believe? No! Please keep up your political commentary and your support for Iraqis and stop condeming others beliefs. Pat in NC | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:44 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here Paul. Here's something for you to contemplate. I would put thinker, JohnL and myself on level IV and you on level III (or maybe II). You're still arguing with the folks on level II. Turn around and look the other way for a while. You might enjoy it. Beats trying to hammer the bible thumpers to death, which is a lost cause, in my view. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:54 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's a description of my concept of God. The author of these words had a very high IQ. "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:06 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And here's a website on Einstein's ruminations on God, for your edification. It's full of short and sweet quotations. Enjoy. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:09 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "I'm interested in how you go about applying occam's razor to the feeling evoked by great art or a magnificent sunset?" This would be a genetic trait of respecting construction. Pyramids are created too. Anyone who has the power to do that is pretty great in my book. Louise, there's no point quoting Einstein at me. Einstein is fallible like everyone else. If you idolize someone, be it Einstein or Mohammed, you really really really stuff things up. And you've also put me in an out-group, making me an inferior Level-II or Level-III. In my opinion, you are inferior for not being able to step back and live as an atheist to clear your mind. It is enlightening. Force yourself to do it. The difference is, I don't suggest you're going to go to hell for not being at the same level as me. As for why I argue with fundamentalists, these are the exact people I need to argue with, so that I can apply lessons learned to the Muslims. I know they are humanists, so I want to know how they can stand condemning me to hellfire. It must cause logical contortions to their concept of a benevolent God. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:33 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pat, "Why is it that you are so intolerant of Christians?" You should ask yourself what made Christians so intolerant of atheists that they burnt them at the stake. Stop blaming the victim. Atheists didn't burn Christians at the stake. Maybe COMMUNISTS did, but not atheists. Atheists don't care, except as an intellectual exercise, whether someone is an atheist or not. If you need a security blanket, go for it. What I'm concerned about is the out-grouping. So do atheists go to heaven in your understanding of Christianity or not? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:36 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, "Well, if an IQ test is your basis for capitulation, thinker may have superior weaponry to you." No, it is the ability to change the laws of physics and zap my wife into oblivion that will make me do whatever he tells me to do so that he doesn't tortured me etc. Nukes can't beat a vengeful God like that. I've only got a stack of allies with nukes on my side. I don't have any allies that can alter the laws of physics (which will render nukes useless). That is why I will submit. Even if he's got the temperament of a 5 year old child like Mohammed et al. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:39 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, you're about 15 to 20 years too late. If you had known me then, I would have triumphantly declared myself to be an athiest. I've moved on, and as with most things in life, I can only go forward (except for my spelling ;-0). Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:40 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's another, Paul. Have fun with this one. I gotta go to work. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information,which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep us in everlasting ignorance............that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:43 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, As for your comments under your... "Here's what I require to believe in a god." ...LOL...you certainly are a doubting Thomas. Blessed are they who see and believe but even more blessed are they who do not see and yet have faith. God is soverign over all. You want to stand on your ego and say "Come here, God, and prove yourself to me". Interesting concept. He loves you enough that he just might do that for you but probably in ways that you would have to be watching for. Bumper stickers saying "God Bless America" have proliferated since 9/11. But I am wondering if we should be sporting bumper stickers that instead say " God will Bless America when we bless Him" As it is, I got the feeling he wanted me to make a bumper sticker for my car and so I did. Then some months later he seemed to be nudging me to make a couple more. All based on the premise that he wants a relationship with each and every one of us and that it revolvs around prayer. Here is the first bumper sticker I had made..."Give the LORD his due...Pray". Then he nudged me to have two more made up "...Talk to Him" and "...He wants to know you". I get more stares than good vibes from passer's by, but hey, it is the Truth. Anyway, I had to make 125 of them to get my set. If anyone is interested in getting one set for free, email me off line. Or you can just send me hate mail if it upsets you. All I know is that he is in my life and he is awesome. I do hope that you give him some of your time in prayer, Paul...what would you have to loose? Your Soul? And thanks for all of your comments...for they are thought provoking and I totally agree with your take on our liberal media. It's like they are creating a bunch of lemmings headed for the socialist cliff. People just read and believe what they read without questioning it in their busy lives. Makes me real sad. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:50 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, You said... "I do, however, tend to find myself occasionally in disagreements with people like you, people who decide that they're holy enough in their own particular person that anybody disputing their interpretation of events, history, or politics is attacking the Lord, God of the Universe himself. You're kind of elevating your status there Randy; I don't see you ranking that high. And, I consider you ranking yourself that as pretty much unmitigated arrogance." Man, it is interesting how others can try and make a shambles of your own life. I am sorry if you feel that I am so arrogant or so holy. No, I am so humble. God has done wonderous things to me and then smacked me in the head when it became obvious that I wasn't paying attention. Now I am. Just sharing the Word as I know it. That is all. Not trying to look down on anyone (well, maybe the terrorists and Mookie...and even there I am told not to elevate myself above them). It is much harder to get these concepts out in print than via a phone call, for in print, my words can take on all sorts of meaning to different people. But I spoke them to say that I believe in God and in the Bible and in the fact that God does love us all. And so how did that get to be so arrogant. We are to be righteous in his name alone and that may be the rub, for maybe you take me to be righteous in my own life. Sorry. I fully get the concept that I am no better than any other person and I tell my kids to always give the poor man by the roadside some coins (even when my wife hisses that they are just out for money for booze) for there, but for the grace of God, Go I. I understand that better than some of you, for my life was headed for that type of ending before God lifted me up and out of the drinking binges. That's just reality within me. Sorry if it offends you. It is just awesome to me and I can't help but proclaim His Glory. Probably most everyone posting here has some sort of concept of God in his or her head (85% of Americans believe in a God). Would it be so suprising if he were the actual one mentioned in the Bible as the Creator...the one who can say in any point of time "I am"? Interesting posts, to say the least. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:06 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, You wrote... "Randy G, what does your vengeful God do to Hindus who worship false Gods? Paul Edwards" He Loves them as he loves me and He hopes that they do come to hear the WORD. If not, maybe then he will be judging then at the end of time as hinted at in Revelation. We are not to know all of his thoughts. Just that he created all of us and loves all of us, no matter where we have strayed...hence the beautiful concept of him as the shepard and we as the flock of sheep and the narrow gate leading to heaven that not all will get through. He doesn't want anyone who is innocent killed in his name. But he doesn't want people enslaved, either. The Crusades was a period of history where a noble cause was denegrated and allowed to become nothing more than butchery in the end. No clear winners there. Same for the Islamic spread in the middle ages...spread by sword. No, hopefully this humanism you speak of is a concept that will lead people to the real God and not to Satan (who can be one slick minister or preacher or leader or anyone Satan wants to corrupt). Every time God does Good, Satan is right there to try and counter the move with his own evil spin. Sad to watch. But at least I can now tell good from evil. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:17 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "that principle is contempt prior to investigation" You're looking down on me again. You've assumed I have contempt. Do you seriously think I like the idea of dying and that's it, I'm gone forever? It is an unpleasant thought. This is because of a genetic characteristic of humans. The EASY thing to do is to give in and just take the security blanket. The hard thing to do is have nothing. I have asked for scientifically verifiable evidence of a god. I've given you the sort of thing I expect. So far you've given me nothing. Yet despite that, you hold me in contempt already. That is unbelievable, Louise. It is the attitude that causes Christians and their loving God to wreak havoc on atheists. Your hand was behind those Russian schoolchildren. Having a dogmatic belief and seeing those who resist going the easy route as your inferior. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:20 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "what would you have to loose? Your Soul?" No, my critical thinking skills and my tolerance. Secular humanists are more tolerant than bigots like you. It's people like you who massacre Russian schoolchildren because they're the wrong religion or indeed no religion. "He Loves them as he loves me and He hopes that they do come to hear the WORD" So, if a Hindu hears about the bible, but prefers the religion he inherited from his parents, ie the one where he worships allegedly-false gods, then what happens to him? Does he make it to Heaven or not? Assume he's a humanist Hindu. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:29 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, just to follow-up on the critical thinking skills. You list a whole lot of things that are simply "atoms moved around" and you claim it was the work of God without actually attempting to analyse whether it was just following normal statistical chances of occurrence. As Louise immediately jumped to a sunset and decided that feeling=soul instead of looking harder for a scientific explanation. We are genetically predisposed to seek protection of someone with power. And to BE the power in fact. To have lots of women. THIS is our human nature. What we are in modern society is unnatural. If you want to see nature, go and look at those simple people in Iraq who flocked to Al Sadr. They do not understand modern military doctrine, and think that they can seize power. It is our democratic western societies that are totally unnatural. Dictators are natural. Everyone is admiring power. You cannot blame the Iraqis for doing what comes naturally. No-one taught them differently. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:37 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul: Anyone else? What does an atheist need to do in order to get into Heaven, assuming he is not willing to stop being an atheist (but flexible on everything else)? Or are we excluded? Do you care??? Wanda | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:41 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wanda, yes I do care. I don't want to be on your out-group, because that will cause an ideological clash which could get violent. I'll lose that clash and get burnt at the stake, or have to pledge allegiance to god, or whatever. So I care very much why people would want to condemn me to Hell when I've never harmed anyone. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:47 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So answer the question please Wanda. And also, because I'm a humanist instead of a Christian bigot, I would like to ask on behalf of the Hindus who worship false gods, whether they are destined to hell as well. I don't want to see a Christian revival that sends Hindus to their death. It wouldn't be the first time that Christians killed anyone. Hell, even today they keep hearing voices in their head. Waco. Etc etc. Answer the question please. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:51 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Paul, I'm not looking down on you. I enjoy these debates. I just believe there are some levels of understanding that you haven't contemplated yet. Are you saying you already know everything there is to know? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:53 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's try that again then. Rand G. wrote: "Oh yeah...he is in the North Vietnam War Remnants Museum as one of their greatest heros...for all the lies he told about atrocities that the navy never committed." That was a blatant lie; a blatant libel, published while you wrap yourself in the mantle of God. When it's pointed out, you merely walked away from it. No surprise, not news to you. Getting caught at it wasn't even worth your notice. Sometimes you get away with it; sometimes you don't. What the hell, right? And then you go to telling me what I think of God and implying that a disagreement with your take on the subject is an assault on God himself. You don't qualify as humble dude. It don't matter that you know how to spell it. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:57 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "Are you saying you already know everything there is to know?" That is the one single thing I am absolutely definitely 100% not saying. EVERYTHING for me is open to change. But I am familiar with the scientific process (unless you want to help me improve on that) and as such, there are standards for evidence, specifically that it must be reproducible. Do you have some reproducible evidence to give me? Looking at a sunset qualifies. But I've already told you that I've got a scientific theory for that that doesn't involve a God, but does involve worshipping power. Power like Al Sadr and Mohammed and pyramids. Which explanation do you think is most likely? Power or supernatural? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:58 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Besides, I haven't read anything in your arguments that isn't in the "tired old concepts that should be deep sixed" part of in my world view. You do seem to read a huge amount of stuff into my words and I see a lot of Christian dogma in what you claim to see me saying. You are rejecting that dogma, to be sure, and so do I, but nevertheless, it is the old worn out dogma that you are arguing against and seem to be totally fixated on, almost to the point of being blinded to what I am really saying. I'm not being disrespectful of you at all. I'm simply pointing out that you haven't grasped what I am saying because you are framing it in old dogma. That's not where I am. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In actual fact, the entire universe is a symbol of power, and that's where God fits in. Whoever created the universe is pretty damn strong. No-one wants to get on the wrong side of someone with that much power, for sure. I am in awe of the universe myself. That's why I said there was a good argument for God based on the fact that there is this ***MASSIVE*** engineering project, it is almost impossible to think that it "just happened". And that is why we obey God's command. Straight fear of what he's planning on doing to us later. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I am not prejudging anything you have to say, based on Christianity or anything else. So far the only thing you have told me about is a work of art, a symbol of power. What other evidence have you got of a God? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:04 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of what sort of God are you seeking evidence? A creator God? A meddling in the affairs of mortals God? I experience awe. I experience mystery. That, in my world, is the experience of God. I suppose you might be able to measure the impulses in the brain or the heightened rush of some kind of hormone that produce the feelings of awe and mystery, but that does not disprove that I experience awe and I experience mystery. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I'm after evidence of both creator and meddling. I experience awe and mystery too. Awe is the worship of power. Mystery is a genetic trait we have to analyze things we don't know, to try to explain them. That's why we kick arse while ants just walk around. Nothing supernatural there. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is unbelievable, Louise. It is the attitude that causes Christians and their loving God to wreak havoc on atheists. Your hand was behind those Russian schoolchildren. That is baseless, Paul, and out of bounds. I get a kick out of how you keep accusing others of intolerance (who are just having a civil conversation with you), but are quick to turn around and put people on your "enemies" list and declare them ready for a noose. For all your debating skills, you're really quite dictatorial in nature, or perhaps just so defensive that it seems that way sometimes. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, why don't you question why I am acting so defensively, and see if as a humanist there is something you can do to put my mind at ease? I have a right to not live in fear. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But that is what I call God. It is neither a creator nor a meddler, but a force that uplifts my spirit, if I am open to it. We can debate the concept of "supernatural" too, if you're game. But maybe I should wait until after work. Email me if you want. The address that I post here is my personal account at home. I'm at work and feeling guilty, since it's the tax payer who covers my salary. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, supernatural is something that is outside the laws of physics. E.g. if an object is moving in a straight line and then changes direction, when there is no magnetism etc that could explain it, a possible explanation is "God did it". This is actually the first recourse for explanations throughout history. It hasn't been proven right once yet. The force that uplifts your spirit is the fact that you have asked "why?" because it is genetically in you, and you think there might be a God, and you think there might be a higher purpose in life, and that you should be doing something to be happy and maybe make other people happy too. And you're happy that you're probably protected by God, even after you die. So long as you do the right thing of course, e.g. drowning or slaying infidels etc etc. I'd rather not email, the main target is not Christians, it's Muslims. Christians just allow me to hone my debating skills ready for the big showdown. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One more kick at the can before I get back to doing what I'm paid to do: Athiests such as Stalin did a very good job of terrorizing and murdering, didn't they. It's not only belief that is a source of evil, it's also the propensity of those who use their belief to do either do or excuse evil. I think such people tend to be very hardened in their views on subjects such as this. Paul, like JohnL I've also been a bit perplexed by your frequent reference to humanism, which is a philosophy I admire, coupled with what comes across as an iron fist which seems at odds with that philosophy. Perhaps you can explain that in an email to me. I'd like to explore it. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:39 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "Athiests such as Stalin did a very good job of terrorizing and murdering, didn't they. It's not only belief that is a source of evil, it's also the propensity of those who use their belief to do either do or excuse evil" That was done in the name of COMMUNISM another DOGMA just like CHRISTIANITY. You should go and find some examples of SECULAR HUMANISTS doing something wrong. By definition, if they do something wrong, they're not secular humanists. It is disgusting that you associate me with Stalin because we were both atheists. What next? We were both white-skinned people? DISGUSTING. As for the iron fist, this war is an ideological clash between humanists and non-humanists. Non- humanists either need to be locked up or killed, before they get us. We're both humanists, so I'm allied with you in this fight. But after the fight is over, I never know whether one of these dogmas is going to raise its ugly head again and come hunting me. BTW, I've documented most stuff here: http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=337 Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, nobody's coming to get you because of your philosophical leanings, so breathe easy and enjoy the conversation. On the other hand, I found this in an article I just looked up: Contrary to popular belief in some circles, Australians have no right to freedom of expression under the Australian Constitution. It seems the High Court has found certain rights to be implied in the Australian Constitution and on international covenants signed by the government, but not necessarily adhered to, so this may be a legitimate matter for you to raise with your compatriots in the near future. A Bill of Rights can come in very handy sometimes, and might enable you to sleep more soundly at night, whether you believe in God or not. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appears the debating tactic Paul is perfecting best is "getting in the last word." Persistence. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, if we don't have freedom of expression, no-one has told us. I've never heard any Australian say "I can't say what I really want to say because I don't have freedom of speech". If I want to advocate genocide, then DAMNIT, I'm Australian, I can say whatever the damn hell I want to say. Which is just as well because I couldn't have isolated the fundamental disagreements if I hadn't advocated genocide as a solution. "nobody's coming to get you because of your philosophical leanings" What guarantees can you give me of this? What I do know is that I have been put in an out-group by Christians even though I DID NOTHING WRONG, and Hindus were put into that out-group as well, and I just got associated with Stalin, because he was white-skinned and an atheist like me. Looks pretty damn dangerous to me. I want to know why I keep getting treated as an inferior just because I'm an atheist. Why does everyone insist that I and Hindus will go to Hell? I get scared when I hear people say things like that. What are you going to do to alleviate this treatment of Hindus and atheists as second-class people destined to go to Hell NO MATTER HOW NICE THEY ARE? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 12:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Brooks has a very good column in the NYT about the Islamist "death cult" and the media's response to the massacre in Russia. Three years after Sept. 11, too many people have become experts at averting their eyes. If you look at the editorials and public pronouncements made in response to Beslan, you see that they glide over the perpetrators of this act and search for more conventional, more easily comprehensible targets for their rage... They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable." This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:04 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, "beyond negotiation" Actually they just need to be taught empathy. It is not natural. Seeing protection by aligning with the most powerful is natural. Empathy is not. Hence secular humanism, or humanism. And they also need to be shown the verses in the Koran that describe planetary motion that are clearly incorrect, so that they stop treating the Koran as sacrosanct. Point out the nice things in the Koran, and find some authority figure who is willing to say "follow the nice things, ignore the nasty stuff - Christians, Hindus and atheists all go to heaven too, because they are in fact Muslims, they just don't know it". Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:09 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What guarantees can you give me of this? None whatsoever, which is why I brought up the matter of a Bill of Rights, which has evidently been raised by many Australian lawmakers but which you chose to throw back in my face. I don't think you want reassurance, Paul. You just want everybody to agree with you. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get Sistani to tell the terrorists the following: True Muslims are humanists. If atheists, Hindus and Christians are humanists, then they are actually Muslims, it's just that they don't realise that. All humanists will enter the kingdom of God, even if they don't know that they are Muslims and have never read the Koran. I've read the Koran, and I understand it properly, and trust me, even atheists can enter Heaven. So long as they are humanists, that's all that matters. And hope that Muslims are dumb enough to listen to an arsewipe like Sistani. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:14 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, "None whatsoever, which is why I brought up the matter of a Bill of Rights" A Bill of Rights does not stop Christians from looking down on me as someone who is a second-class citizen on his way to Hell. I want the religion reformed, not using the police as a last-ditch protection from intolerant Christians with a propensity for violence. The police won't stop Christian terrorism. I want to take away the intent. This intolerant dogma called Christianity. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I like you, but.... you do have a propensity to find stuff between the lines that just isn't there, such as the assertion that I was associating you personally with Stalin. Just to get clear in my mind, do you include me in this: "I have been put in an out-group by Christians"? I haven't put you in an out-group and I don't consider myself to be Christian. I just want to make sure you understand that. And yes, I know I'm a hypocrite. I promised to get back to work and here I am again, picking things apart with you. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I lose track of these things. I just debate a single message at a time. If you allow me into your heaven, to be with you, despite the fact that I am an atheist, then you are not putting me in an out- group, and I will feel safe with you. Otherwise, I will always be scared of you. I'm not intolerant of you, it's the other way around. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By the way, Paul, the Christians who look down on you and consider you bound for hell are on level II of the levels of spiritual growth that I mentioned way up there somewhere. If you feel any need to prove to me that you are not contemptuous prior to investigation, the link is still there and you can go and look at it. It's at 09.07.04 - 9:54 am. Now, I really must go or God will smite me!! Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, if you and I were in the same room now, I'd give you a big hug. Damn it. I can't leave. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I need the hug and to be let into heaven to be with you. Do I get in or not? Are you tolerant enough to let me in? BTW, I clicked the link when you gave it to me the first time, and I wasn't impressed that you put me on level 2, given that I'm still waiting for any scientific evidence you have. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The reason I put you on level II (and remember I put you primarily on level III, cause that's where the passionate athiests are) or PERHAPS level II is because you still apparently need to go at it with those who are on level II. That's where the fundies of all religions and dogmas are. As for me letting you into heaven. Well, I'm not sure there is a heaven and if there is, I'm very certain I'm not in charge of who gets in and who doesn't. That by the way, is another of the Christian concepts I see you using to frame your arguments. If I have time tonight, I will re-read all your posts here and pick out what I think are Christian concepts, then I'll point them out to you so you can understand where I'm coming from. Of course, you can ignore it all, if you choose. I don't mind. Anyway, if I'm fired for goofing off at work, will you support me? Put a roof over my head, etc.? You seem like a supportive, protective kind of guy beneath the tough exterior. After all, it's your fault. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:37 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I need the hug and to be let into heaven to be with you. Paul, please..you're a married man. This conversation has certainly taken a turn, whether for the better or worse I can't decide. I've got to be off for the day, but it's just as well. These two may require a little privacy. Continue to work your magic, Louise. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:37 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You want one too JohnL! It's a motherly hug, by the way. We're all frightened. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I'm okay for now, thanks. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know, I sort of know where Paul's coming from, although his propensity for dramatic debate (or is it debate for entertainment purposes) usually means he overthrows his debating point ball. As an agnostic, I get more than a little tired of people (even friends) that INSIST that I must believe in God. It's almost as if I'm personally insulting them if I don't. But I have all the spiritual feelings described and humanist leanings that religious people assert they have, it simply doesn't translate itself into a belief in a higher power. I realized a while ago that my brain simply functions in a different fashion than those with religious feelings. I stopped apologizing for it years ago, and I realize no amount of trying to import my particular mental processes to another's brain will work either. But I do feel Paul's frustrations at the categorizing by many religious people. The link Louise put in comes under particular scrutiny. I know Louise is lovely, very open and non-judgemental, so I take it as completely unintentional, but the article does come off very much in the "we're so much smarter and more advanced in our thinking that we can actually put ourselves in a category IV while you're just a category III" vein, that it's actually offensive. I think you're playing up your fears of persecution a bit, Paul, for dramatic effect, but I can attest that I receive the same message of being culled as an outcast, among even moderately religious groups for my atheistic leanings. Fortunately, I find being an outcast to be just a little bit fun. Very perverse of me, I know. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:45 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "The reason I put you on level II (and remember I put you primarily on level III, cause that's where the passionate athiests are) or PERHAPS level II is because you still apparently need to go at it with those who are on level II. That's where the fundies of all religions and dogmas are." I need to go at them because to solve terrorism, this is what is required. Besides which, breaking dogmas is an intellectual sport regardless. "As for me letting you into heaven. Well, I'm not sure there is a heaven and if there is, I'm very certain I'm not in charge of who gets in and who doesn't." That is not the question I asked. I asked, if there was a heaven, do you think I would be allowed in? What's your best guess? I'm an atheist and you're not. Do you think we're equal and will get equal entrance, or do you think the fact that I said "THERE IS NO GOD" (even if proven wrong after death), will exclude me from being with you? "That by the way, is another of the Christian concepts I see you using to frame your arguments." I want equal rights for atheists. Genuinely equal. Not just in the Bill of Rights, I want people to treat me as an equal in their hearts. I want to join your club, without actually changing my beliefs. I don't break any laws in my country. "Anyway, if I'm fired for goofing off at work, will you support me?" Yes, I support setting up institutions in every country such that no-one should ever have to live in fear. ie there should be a government guarantee that no matter what happens, you will be given food and shelter. I don't care what the standard is, so long as it is something. Your standard of living may drop, but you will not starve. That is what I want. "You seem like a supportive, protective kind of guy beneath the tough exterior." I'm only tough on non-humanists (e.g. thieves, rapists, terrorists etc etc). Although I will forgive any that have never been taught empathy. The ones that have been taught it and reject it, will go to Hell, in my opinion, if there was one. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "I think you're playing up your fears of persecution a bit, Paul, for dramatic effect" Of course. It is non-Muslims who need to be afraid, not just atheists. Schoolchildren need to be afraid of being raped by Muslims who are in fact just following the Koran, and are allowed to do that. They are superior people. They are the Nazis. There is no guilt. They get entrance to heaven regardless of what they do to non-Muslims. It's a wonderful religion if you want to be a non-humanist and still feel great about yourself. Wow. Guilt-free murder, rape and pillage, and we wonder why there's no Arab democracies? "Fortunately, I find being an outcast to be just a little bit fun." Of course. Harassing Christians for their vengeful God that is going to send me to Hell is a barrel of laughs. It's funny that on earth, it is the practitioners of religion, not God, us atheists fear. Well, not so funny when you're being raped by a guilt-free Muslim because you're an infidel, I'm sure!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 1:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Guilt-free murder, rape and pillage" It just occurred to me - Jesus died so that Christians can get away with this too. All they need to do is say "I'm a Christian, Jesus died for my sins" as they zip up their fly. Wow. What a religion. About the only people who feel guilty are secular humanists, who can't stand violating THEIR OWN moral code derived from the Golden Rule. Which is what made me pay back the $1 I semi-cheated out of my sister, with interest. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:05 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. Here is my response: If there is a heaven, and if it is as I hope it should be, very definitely we will both be there, as long as we have both done our best to be good people. However, I'm never going to know that, am I. It's unknowable. However, I'm not counting on there being a heaven and I have no idea who gets to be the judge if there is. The idea of a heaven is a carrot on the stick used to encourage adherence to that principle. I think all religions and some dogmas teach that we should be good to one another. In reality, I kind of think we turn to fertilizer after we die and that's it. In the grand scheme of things, that's also useful and inspires me with awe. And for the record, I think the concept of heaven that is in the judeo-christian tradition was created by people who survived a near death experience. It's interesting that you reference a "place" called Hell. It seems difficult to escape framing these debates without referencing Christian concepts, doesn't it. In the country where I live there are equal rights for all beliefs. It's guaranteed in our constitution. However, constitutions, like religious beliefs, and our species, are transitory. Tammy, have you ever read the book Passages? It deals with much the same subject as that website. I don't think it's judgmental at all. It just a way of framing observations that seem to be common among most humans as they proceed through life. For many of us, spirituallity becomes deeper and more important the older we get. Some, however, remain stuck in simplistic and childish levels of development. (I'm not referring to you, Paul, okay. Don't go ballistic on me.) Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, Yes I read it. I still think it's judgmental, just presented in a smoother, more palatable recipe then most. But you have to understand, to me, the concept of God appears very primitive. Basically, an attempt to render incomprehensible phenomena comprehensible to the human mind, so I'm not the one to ask really. "It just occurred to me - Jesus died so that Christians can get away with this too. All they need to do is say "I'm a Christian, Jesus died for my sins" as they zip up their fly. Wow. What a religion." Paul, you really do go for maximum voltage don't you? And I had high hopes you were going to get through this debate without once mentioning rape. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "If there is a heaven, and if it is as I hope it should be, very definitely we will both be there, as long as we have both done our best to be good people" Thank you so much. I now feel safe to be around you, and I will do my utmost to be good (I was going to do that anyway), so that you will treat me as an equal, both in this life and the next (if it exists), where I hope we can pick up this conversation. Ok, that's one religious nutcase down, only 6 billion remaining. Can we give specially high priority to the Muslims? They're getting scarier every time I switch on my TV. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:37 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, most of the arseholes I have known in my life all claimed to be Christian. They are the most sadistic people, they know they can get away with anything so long as they insist they are Christian. Someone's got to get rid of that "Jesus died for our sins" attraction. Like hell he did. You make up for your damn sins in this life or you go to hell. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:39 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In fact, I wonder if they actually commit sins when they otherwise wouldn't have, simply because they've got "right of passage" simply for claiming that they believe Jesus was a saviour. Sheesh. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:41 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The main problem in this world is not so much religion: massmurders and massterror have been committed under the name of many non "religious" isms as there are communism/ nazism/ colonialism/ racism but fanatic non-critical groupthinking combined with extreme contempt for other groups. German proverb: "das kollektiv ist die wahnsin": the collectivity is the madness. At the moment the most fanatic form of groupthinking after the destruction of nazism and communism is islamofascism. If the west is determined and work together with the moderates in islam as we're being doing in Iraq right now then we will be succesfull though it may take many years. That's why success in the Iraqi-project is key: It will prove democracy is possible and beneficiary for an islamic country and like that undermine the hardliners in this religion. John - Netherlands | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:55 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Tammy, most of the arseholes I have known in my life all claimed to be Christian. They are the most sadistic people, they know they can get away with anything so long as they insist they are Christian. Someone's got to get rid of that "Jesus died for our sins" attraction." I think you have to admit (in your sincerest moments) that devout Christians are a mixed bag of grapes. I do know a lot of wonderful Christians, but quite frankly, those are no more wonderful than my atheist friends. I've never witnessed any correlation between morality and religion, despite what most religious people would like you to believe. The correlation appears to be along the lines of something all together different. Yes, I have met Catholic men (some married) who made more than a passing attempt to convince me to accept their advances (not successful) with the pliable rationale that I could always go to confession afterwards and be absolved. So I know some do commit what are considered even mortal sins feeling Jesus' sacrifice had let them off the hook. However, I can't ever recall meeting one that purposely commited sins because they believed Jesus' death gave them Carte Blanche to do so. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 2:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Jesus died for our sins" I never understood that one either. I just keep my distance from the fundies. They are not good for the soul. Paul, you were scared of me???? Big tough, testosterone drive you??? I wouldn't knowingly hurt a fly and I'm usually open to any sort of belief. I don't care if it conforms to mine. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- drive = driven I take that back. I killed a fly yesterday. I think I'll go into the confessional now. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "I think you have to admit (in your sincerest moments) that devout Christians are a mixed bag of grapes" Oh sure. And they're the ones who fanatically give money to NGOs too, to get in good with God. I don't give money for standard of living things. I only give money to things that have an institutional effect. Like the IPDP. "I have met Catholic men (some married) who made more than a passing attempt to convince me to accept their advances (not successful) with the pliable rationale that I could always go to confession afterwards and be absolved" Dumbfounding. I don't care about adults having a private sexual life, but I do care about this mentality of guilt-free sin. This is what all Muslims are blessed with. They're told so long as they pray 5 times a day, they're on a one-way ticket to Heaven, no matter what they do. They need to instead consider how they should treat atheists and Hindus (ie as equals, and prove it by giving more charity money to India than pouring water into sand in Arafat's terrorist state). Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Paul, you were scared of me???? Big tough, testosterone drive you??? I wouldn't knowingly hurt a fly and I'm usually open to any sort of belief. I don't care if it conforms to mine." Louise, you are are so sweet and kind. I have to laugh, imagine anyone going out of their way to calm Paul's fears. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "Paul, you were scared of me????" Actually, I truly do want you to treat me as an equal. "Big tough, testosterone drive you???" Fortunately I was born in a free country, and I am empowered via my vote to elect a pro-war Prime Minister who will send the most kick-arse force for freedom in history, the Australian SAS, into battle in Iran, Syria, Gaza Strip etc etc. So yeah, I do feel a bit cocky. It's a good job that it's the free people who have that feeling. I don't think I'd make a good soldier myself. I get into too many interpersonal conflicts and would probably exact revenge on the non-humanists. I'm not a forgiving person when dealing with people who have been taught how to be nice but reject that in lieu of guilt-free selfishness. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "imagine anyone going out of their way to calm Paul's fears." Why shouldn't they? I'm in a minority group that has been persecuted throughout history, and no-one's ever bothered to redress that to make sure it never happens again. In fact, when the atheists ask for a secular pledge of allegiance, we're howled down as the aggressors. No-one bothers to look at it from our point of view. We don't count. We're all scumbag commies. Thanks a lot all you folks on the left who supposedly look out for minority rights. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay Paul, Then we're going to start the "Save Paul Edwards" fund right here on the blog. For the hunted and persecuted Paul Edwards, hounds to the fox and all that what, what? Who'll be the first to contribute? Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John, "At the moment the most fanatic form of groupthinking after the destruction of nazism and communism is islamofascism" Another in the running is revolutionary socialism. That's what people like Kerry really are. They engage in Marxist dialogue that does not participate in objective truth. That's how he manages to give the impression that he had personal knowledge of widespread war crimes, while dodging around actually giving anything specific that can be scientifically verified. And the Christmas in Cambodia charge doesn't need to be answered. They manage to shift the whole debate to whether anyone has the right to attack his patriotism. Bait and shift or something. This is probably some communist propaganda technique. Someone should probably be doing something to point out all this stuff the same way we expect people to rebutt Al Jazeera's lies. Communism failed so they're going to try socialism, and permanent victimhood is somehow woven in. Can't these people pick a small country and try it on that in a controlled experiment? Sheesh. Science people, not dogma. How come no-one exposes the press for the complete infiltration by commies? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:29 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I get into too many interpersonal conflicts and would probably exact revenge on the non-humanists." I've noticed. Did you feel I wasn't "treating you as an equal"??? We can disagree and still be equals, can't we? I sure hope so. Or did you mean treat your ideas about God/religion, etc. as equal? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "Then we're going to start the "Save Paul Edwards" fund right here on the blog" Unlike other minority groups, I recognize that Christianity has changed heaps, and I am actually protected by Christians, via the laws of my liberal democracy, and I appreciate that, and I thank them for their tolerance, which allows my freedom of speech which I can use to make my case against their religion. That is tolerance. However, the Pope hasn't said that atheists and Hindus can go to heaven, and the pledge of allegiance is still there, and Bush uses God when talking to troops. I don't feel we've achieved equality by a long shot. I don't need affirmative action - I just want equality. I haven't done anything wrong to be excluded like this. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "Did you feel I wasn't "treating you as an equal"???" It does not normally come up, because normally Christians treat other religions as equal, and they assume that other people go to their own heaven or something like that. Christians do not realise they need to not just treat other religions as equals, they need to explicitly let them in to their own heaven. Otherwise it can't be repeated for Muslims. And you need to come up with some sensible entrance criteria, which I suggest is humanism (as opposed to observing Ramadan etc etc useless things). Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:37 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okeeeeey, A tacit agreement then by all here on the blog that we agree to ACCEPT (not exclude) the aforesaid Paul Edwards. (as the party of the first part). The parties of the second part, (represented by myself and Louise) do hereby grant the party of the first party full equality and acceptance and acknowledge that we think he's really keen and he can hang with us at any time. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:41 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Two women in one night - whoo hoo! Alaa, over to you now. As a secular humanist, I accept you as a full equal as a non-secular humanist (although there was that dodgy reference to Jews). Do you return the favour to me and let me in to your heaven as a full equal? Can Jews and Hindus get in as well, assuming they are humanists? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:46 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, My advice to you is not to fight it. To use the rape venacular so fondly employed by Paul...just lie back and think of England!!! Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:54 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, you're referring to me as a Christian, I think, if I'm understanding your statement at 09.07.04 - 3:37 pm. I'm not Christian, although some of the people who I most admire are/were (Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Bishop Desmond Tutu, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, for example.) My belief lies close to those who see science and religion as totally compatible and complementary. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 3:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, be careful about how much praise you give to Marxist terrorists who took over South Africa, as a one-party state, and then proceeded to send arms to another Marxist human rights abuser in Haiti. This is what the Democrats stand for. Marxism. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe you are referring to Nelson Mandella, not Desmond Tutu, correct? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I don't know how widespread this Marxist filth goes. I'm just sick of Nobel Peace Prizes going to Marxist terrorists. Wolfowitz should be getting it. All these organizations seem to have been infiltrated. Feminists don't care about Iraqi women being raped. Nor does the Pope. I want to know how much of the world has been taken over by stealth, such that holocausts no longer matter. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "such that holocausts no longer matter." Did they ever? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:34 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man, I got wrist cramps from my scroll wheel on that series. PE; Just picked up on a comment (waaayyy above): "Buddhism (which advocates a benevolant God)" AFAIK, Buddhism has no god. The gods of popular Buddhism are, in the pure quill version, artifacts of spiritual and mental unenlightenment. Buddha is not a god, and does not grant prayers, despite all the prayer wheels, etc. All the apparent trappings of worship are devices to stimulate or emulate mediatrion or aid in improving one's spiritual distance from the grotty details of the Wheel. Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:44 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **meditation** Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:45 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, Nazism was a holocaust, and it was opposed by the free world. Communism was a holocaust, and it was similarly opposed by the free world. I actually expected a continuation of the effort to free the world. To me, we were just pausing to wait for the Russians to calm down. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 4:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, is there something insidious about Catholic men encouraging Catholic women to sin, then going to confess an endless stream of sex stories to sexually-frustrated Catholic bishops, who then go and take out their frustrations on Catholic boys? Seems to me that could cause some societal problems. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 5:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL. Sounds like a good way to wrap up the debate. Sorry Brian. You're too late. I'm logging off now. I have to plunk numbers into a spreadsheet to see how much the poor taxpayer has to cough up to pay me and my staff over the next few years. Devine intervention will be welcome. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 5:20 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unless you want to take up the "cross", Brian. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 5:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Paul.... re: your friend who references 'asian tribes' I would have a discussion with this friend about the need for people to protect themselves in the most humane way possible. Not just nations but people..and by extension...why individualism balanced with community is the most peaceful civil structure. re: your friend who is convinced that Bush is up to some nefarious activity I would lead him through a whole discussion of if he were in Bush's shoes...how would he solve the problem? He is in a place in his life where he has seen the effects of unintended consequences of any action and belives that its by design. Taking him through the process where he has the power and responsibility to act may help him see the great burdens of action and inaction. He only trusts himself so let him decide. And then, tell him all his nefarious intentions so you can both laugh. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 5:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/09/07/do0702.xml bepp | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 5:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- read http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/09/07/do0702.xml bepp | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 5:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- paul how did you end up claiming that nelson mandela was a communist trying to establish a dictatorship in south africa? also alaa if you read this far down good post, perhaps this will force an end to hypocrasy in those that claim muslims cant be terrorists and bring an end to this sort of terror alan alan | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 6:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, Lee C., You wrote: "That was a blatant lie; a blatant libel, published while you wrap yourself in the mantle of God. When it's pointed out, you merely walked away from it. No surprise, not news to you. Getting caught at it wasn't even worth your notice. Sometimes you get away with it; sometimes you don't. What the hell, right? And then you go to telling me what I think of God and implying that a disagreement with your take on the subject is an assault on God himself. You don't qualify as humble dude. It don't matter that you know how to spell it. Lee C." The quote about Kerry is not a lie, although youy may have your own take on it. No matter what he went over there for, he was photographed with the leading Communist military leader of that country and the caption under the photo DID say that it was "to honor John Kerry's "heroic" contributions to the North Vietnamese victory" (Unfit for Command, 2004). You can say why he went over there all you want to, but they (the communists) used his visit to push for victory by saying that even some of the American war heros were now against the struggle in vietnam. They used him. And he certainly did blast away about our forces and stretch the truth about atrocities over there (the Navy was never involved with them)and he did (by several other's testimony who were there) take actual occurances and embellish or outright lie about them to qualify himself for certain of his medals. The term "Glory Hound" comes to mind and goes well with his nonsense about bringing his own camera over there to recreate his "actions" in combat. I don't trust this man as far as I can dribble, let alone spit. He is a liar and not a man of integrity and 250 Vietnam vets will not be silenced on this account. And they are up in arms because he seeks to run for the job of commander in chief and with his almost regular changings of positions and his voting to cut every major weapon program that came before him and his repeated calling of our troops as occupiers (same as the terrorists call them), he is not fit to be President of the United States that I was born in. I don't hate him but he gets me real riled with his lies and his actions and I am one democrat who is voting for Bush. Now on to the God issue. What part of my comments don't you get. God loves us all. He knows all. I am but a grasshopper learning away and loving it. I am no better than you but you seem to persist in saying that I say I am or that I say I speak for God. No...HE speaks for himself through scripture. Not hard to fathom that. I am just one who interprets the teachings. May not always get it right, but I love learning about it. So you can go on with your shots at me...maybe they have more to do with your need to rectify those thoughts with God. He can seem so harsh...but his love is that of a true Father towards a child who is constantly testing his boundaries. We all do that. This human secularism is just anoth Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 9:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Part II another religion. And if the one God above is anything, he is a jealous God by his own account and he does not want us worshiping any other God above him. He is to be above all (his WORDS). You can debate that as long as you like. Do you believe in God, by the way? Not sure if you do or if you ever read the Bible. But that book was inspired by him through the holy spirit and I never was present for any of that. Just am learning about it as I read it and it is an awesome book. Imagine...a collection of works by dozens of authors over a timeline of thousands of years...and yet it all is woven so close together in all that is said in it that it does truely hold water...living water. Awesome book. May the Lord shine some real discernment down upon you, Lee, so that you too can begin to see it for what it is. Not me...the Bible, dude. Me? I'll eat humble pie anyday if it will help to get others to see the truth. Oh yeah...and if human secularlism is to "evolve" into a new religion, who will be the God of it? That's an interesting question (from many points of view). Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can say why he went over there all you want to, but they (the communists) used his visit to push for victory by saying that even some of the American war heros were now against the struggle in vietnam. What? You think I'm a total idiot? I'm gonna fall for that? Can't figure the dates out? The picture was taken in 1993; Kerry was a Senator by then; the war was long over! They weren't using it to "push for victory"; they couldn't have been; they'd "won" years before. This isn't even a good lie you're pushing now. And I don't give a damn what caption the "SwiftVets" put on the picture; they can't change the date of the picture. In spite of what you may think you've learned from Goebbels, merely repeating a lie often enough does not make it the truth. I don't care whether you trust him or not; that's not the issue. He may very well be a liar, that's not the issue either; I never contested either question. But, there's no doubting you're one. The picture wasn't even taken until 1993; the war was long over by then. They didn't use it to "push for victory"; that's imposible, temporaly impossible. You can't be stupid enough to miss this; therefore, the deception must be intentional And I got no problems with God. I do have a problem with folks wrapping themselves in the mantle of purported godliness and tossing very bad lies about like faking godliness gave them that right. So, you can keep your God issues to yourself. I don't care about the specifics of your interpretation and don't care to discuss mine either. What got my goat was you petending to be Christian and using that as a cloak to hide behind, whilst publishing libels. I found it irritating. By your works I know you, and your kind, well enough. And I can see you workin' it here. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1993? Maybe he was a Congressman still. Whatever, the war was long over. Oh, and as long as we're on the subject: A picture taken of one event (Kerry's trip to Vietnam to gather evidence on MIAs); is not proof of anything except that event. Ya'll remember how the lefties kept trying to blow that picture of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam into some sort of "proof" that America had provided Saddam's chemical weapons? Good right-wingers didn't have any trouble seeing through that crap and eventually the lefties dropped it. I ain't seen that one bandied about in quite some time. But, ya'll trying to pull down a picture of an MIA trip from 1993 and make the same sort of distortions against folks you don't happen to like. Trouble is; this picture don't even have the correct date to fit the distorted hypothesis. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee, Calm down...you'll blow a blood vessel or something. I didn't see the date and so, yes, call me an idiot and I will plead guilty on that one. No hidden agendas there. However, I still think they (the Communists) were liabel for using his photo. And I still don't trust him. Somehow, I really hit a nerve with you as well. Not sure where but you do seem awfully upset over me saying I believe in what I read in the Bible. Sorry bout that but that is pretty basic. Doesn't make me a saint. Never said it did. You said it did but not me. Funny how that works. I once was a liberal. Even demonstrated in DC against the war...when Nixon was in office and the whitehouse was surrounded by greyhound buses with a sheriff with a shotgun atop each bus. That was an experience. But even then I always thought that those few far lefties who waved the Viet Cong flag were wacked. Kerry reminds me of them. And I do believe he was and is a glory hound. and a liar. and that's just basic instinct. And i believe Bush is a man of integrity. Someone who had a sinful past like me but has repented of it and is "born again". That seems to scare some. But it comforts me, because I know from where he now comes. I don't have a clue as to what Kerry really thinks, as he says supportive things to opposing groups and expects us to think that that is character. Seems like a snake oil salesman to me. I am in a liberal area, surrounded by many who say they "hate" the President. But when I ask many why, they really don't have a solid answer. That's because they are following this liberal media hype about hating Bush and have bought into it. It's like massive mind manipulation...or like I am watching a bunch of mindless lemmings headed towards that proverbial cliff. I listened to the Democrat and the Republican convention. The Democrats seemed stuck in time, bringing out much of what was popular back in the 70's, including entitlement issues for minorities. When, oh when will that pendulum swing to the dead center. When, oh when will there be true equality and will people stop trying to grab more for themselves so they can get ahead of the other guy. This really is the "Now" generation with many thinking it is me first and to hell with the rest. I heard a lot of that type of retoric at the democrat convention. I heard a lot more about what I believe this country is about from the Republican convention. And the speakers were so much better with the Republicans. Teddy Kennedy is a major embarrasment to us Catholics...he should retire. But Zell Miller and Arnold...now those were speaches. Anyway, I need to respond to your next segment. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:45 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm unfamiliar with the photo in question, as well as the claims made about it, but I wonder if the issue isn't the fact that Kerry was being honored for the role he played many years earlier, and it's that role that the photo (whatever year it was taken) brings into high relief. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee, No fair. How can I argue with you when I agree with you. except for the religious stuff and there, my friend, you don't really get where I am coming from. My daughter told me that I should get confirmed inthe Catholic faith as I did get my first communion but my mother (the catholic in the family) didn't really want to get into the holy spirit stuff...and I wasn't much for listening to much of the catecism stuff anyway. So I was never confirmed. And after 9/11 when I began to really search my life and serch for what or who was out there, I began to grow closer and closer to an understanding of what God was. First with the occasional visits by my born again sister and good conversations. Then into Christian radio and Christian music (some of that stuff really rocks). And then into reading the bible. So my daughter thought I might be swept away by some other denomination and she made that suggestion. So I said "what the heck" and took the classes. And I loved them. And when it came time to be confirmed, my sister (a pentecostal who likes signs of God and speaking in tongues and other such things) picked up her pace to trry and steer me away from the Catholic Church (even though we had all been raised Catholic). So I asked God for a sign. Not a big one...just one I would know by...like maybe a beam of light hitting my head in St Pauls Cathedral as we assembled before the Bishop. So we go over to be baptised (about 122 souls) and to be confirmed (about 125 souls) and first the ones to be baptised are lead up to the alter to have their names added to the book of life. Then it is our turn...Part II Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:54 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry was never a congressman, btw. He went from being Lt. Gov. of Massachusetts to a Senator, when Paul Tsongas (who was a democrat worth voting for) stepped down due to ill health (if I remember correctly). JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 10:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Part II. So we file up to the altar and assemble as a group. My wife says for me to move over cause I am crowding her, so I move a little to my right. Then the bishop says for us all to turn to the right. And we do. and Lo and behold, I am standing all alone right in front of the bishop with all of the rest behind me and he confirms us by talking directly to me. And so I said "thanks, God...I will remain Catholic". Yes, he is an awesome God. He is there for anyone to know but you have to search him out yourselves. Maybe most of you have. And you have your own unique interpretation of what he is and who he is. But wouldn't you want to know if that jives with what He says He is? All you gotta do is read and see. Simple. He loves us all. We are all sinners. He absolves those of us who come to him of our own free will by his grace. Maybe he will absolve the rest (like Paul) in the end. I don't know...and I don't really think I am suppose to know. But he does. So ask him. Not me. HIM. To Alla...not sure if you are continuing to follow these posts...they do weave many tales and do hold many stories. But I for one do want to get back to you and your posts, for you and Zeyad are why I origionally came to these posts and I will say again, my friend. May the Lord Bless you and your family and may He Bless a free and Soverign Iraq. Please give us more of your prose and your concerns and hopes, for you are one of the beacons of light we have helped light over there and you do us much honor by sharing your messages with us. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:03 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I didn't see the date and so. Yeah, right, so let's go on to the other lie. You wrote: ".the caption under the photo DID say that it was 'to honor John Kerry's "heroic" contributions to the North Vietnamese victory'" Again, a lie. The truth is that, "Below the display photograph are explanatory placards in English, French, Vietnamese and Chinese. "The English placard reads: 'Mr. Do Muoi, Secretary General of the Vietnamese Communist Party met with Congressman and Veterans Delegation in Vietnam (July 15-18, 1993).'" This is actually from an anti-Kerry site, so while I don't agree with the analysis you'll find there; I figure it's a good place to get the facts so's you'll not claim they're false facts. And, JohnL: The photograph was of a trip Kerry made with a Vietnam Veteran's group gathering information on MIAs from the Vietnam war, and, not incidentally, working to "normalize" relations between Vietnam and the U.S. after the long hostility following the war. That's what got him in their War Museum. Perfectly legitimate activity, whether one agrees that relations should have been normalized or still be hostile. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry was never a congressman, btw. That sounds right to me. (And I agree about Tsongas too.) Apparently the Vietnamese didn't recognize the distinction between Senator and Congressman. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I was going to let my last comment to Alaa be my last (because, like you, I find these postings to be a bit addictive and I do learn so much from them but they really do eat up way too much of my time and my wife is now constantly grumbling at me)...but then I caught this comment... "It's people like you who massacre Russian schoolchildren because they're the wrong religion or indeed no religion." Paul...are you for real or do you just suffer from paranoia or from hatred of anyone who professes to love a higher being. I have filled many sentences with my outrage at the barbaric acts of these terrorists as well as those in Iraq. They are known by their lies and by their seduction into the ways of Satan himself. For only a person of unspeakable evil would ever harm a child like that. So how do I find my name attached to such barbaric acts...acts that were not by accidental colateral loss of life or by just sudden rage but acts that were premeditated. Where does it say in the Gospels of Jesus Christ to go out and harm the innocent children? Nowhere. God would not want this. Nor would I or any real christian. Nor any athiest who cherishes the concepts of morality and good versus evil. But somewhere in your own dillusional mind you have condured up enough hate about Christians to label them and me as baby killers. Sad, Paul...real sad. Go look up Luke 17:1-4. I have not a clue as to how you could come up with something as idiotic as to call me one of the baby slayers. You owe me and the rest some sort of explaination, for this borders on psycotic babble from you and I for one want to make sure I am talking to someone else who is sane. Please elaborate. And don't bring up and past barbaric acts by so called christians of era's past, for that was then and this is NOW. I am talking about today's real Christians, for none of us had anything to do with people who are now but dust. And what you do know of me that would make you say that...not what you Assume you know of me. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I may not be able to stay up late enoughto get an answer to my last request on the barbarianism. Meanwhile, this post by you is very interesting... "We are genetically predisposed to seek protection of someone with power. And to BE the power in fact. To have lots of women. THIS is our human nature. What we are in modern society is unnatural. If you want to see nature, go and look at those simple people in Iraq who flocked to Al Sadr. They do not understand modern military doctrine, and think that they can seize power. It is our democratic western societies that are totally unnatural. Dictators are natural. Everyone is admiring power. You cannot blame the Iraqis for doing what comes naturally. No-one taught them differently." What you see there is a simple formula...people following their natural state versus following a democratic state. I can follow that. But I look a lot deeper for the forces behind all of it. those invisible forces that you gave up your belief in. For the first part of your statement about people and dictatorships is simply your way of seeing the sinful nature of mankind. Yes, that is what I said. We are all of a sinful nature and even the most civilized of us can fall prey to some of these sins. Even committing fornication in our mind with a woman outside of our own marriage is sin in the eyes of the Lord. Tought road to follow. But thats where the grace comes in, for it clenses us of that stuff and keeps us washed clean in God's eyes. Cool idea in my opinion. The democracy is also a good take. Those that do last the longest are usually based on God's principles. It was that way in how England evolved and in our own constitution and our declaration of Independence. Matter of fact, all but two of the signers were Christian and many were ministers. And even the two who were not christian said in many letters that they too saw the importance of having God in our government. And the Bible was required reading in all classrooms for the first 70 years of our nations history. But since WWII we have grown slack in our zeal for the Lord and activist judges began to issue the famous "seperation of Chruch and State" policies and bit by bit, secularism has crept into our country's ways and religion has been pushed back. Interesting that though fully 85% say they believe in God, many just say that based on their own personal interpretation of God. Seems that if there really is a God, we should be paying attention to HIS word and not our own word. That is the danger of your secular humanism to me...for if left totally to our own druthers with no direction from above, we do have the capacity to drift so far from the mark of morality that we soon end up distroying each other again. History is just full of such examples. And so will the future be. Me? I'm sticking with the one being who I believe created it all. and I don't have any hate for anyone. Rather liberating. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:46 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So they lied about the photo's caption, Lee? Well, that changes my interpretation of that particular event entirely. And I just caught how Randy mentioned Kerry's visit as having been encouraging to the North Vietnamese. I guess it just goes to prove that even the most God-fearing men amongst us are capable of overreaching when the conversation turns to partisan politics. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.07.04 - 11:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess it just goes to prove that even the most God-fearing men amongst us are capable of overreaching. I remember an old country lawyer telling me once that there were three classes of people he could pretty well expect to lie under oath, so he just expected to be ready for it; preachers, teachers, and policemen. Policemen did it because it was part of the job; they were supposed to assist the prosecution. Preachers did it because they knew what God wanted (coincidentally enough this almost always matched their own interests), and lying before men was no big deal if necessary to serve the will of God who was looking out after their interests after all, God would understand and forgive, maybe even wanted them to do it--it being necessary and all. (Teachers is a longer story, and I'll leave it off.) In any case, I think there's an argument to be made that what it proves is something else entirely. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 12:10 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have completely documented love and sex in my "winning ideology" document: http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=335 Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 8:04 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Humans, having evolved without an instruction manual, had to learn everything by ourselves. This eventually led to the scientific process, specifically science, evidence and logic, in order to determine course of action. This is as opposed to dogma... Given the way you sold this thing, I had a right to expect a racier first paragraph, Paul. Every creature on earth comes with an instruction manual, btw, in its genes, which brings us to the subject of sex, but you buried the lede. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 9:43 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- alan, "nelson mandela was a communist trying to establish a dictatorship in south africa" Not a dictatorship, just a state where the vast majority of uneducated poor black people could vote to rob the rich white people blind, sending the country into oblivion. You don't need to be a dictatorship when you've got the uneducated on your side. That's why they used to burn down black schools. The whites were trying to get them to understand modern economic theory before turning over the keys to a dogma like Marxism. Did you notice that South Africa sent arms to Haiti? Did you notice that Mandela said how bad America was, causing all the problems in the world, but never a bad word to say about Saddam? All Marxists trying to use victim mentality in America to cause the allegedly oppressed to overthrow the American Republic and install a wonderful (but untested) socialist system. I'm not sure why they don't just test their socialist system within a capitalist framework or try it out on a small country like Haiti. And I never understood the need for all the human rights abuses. I understood the grinding poverty though. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 10:18 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "I don't hate him but he gets me real riled with his lies and his actions" I hate him. He lied in order to change US foreign policy, which was in the business of protecting the free world from the scourge of communism. He did this because he wanted to spread Marxism, didn't give a hoot about human rights. For the greater good of mankind!!! Can you nutcases please SCIENTIFICALLY TEST your sadistic dogmas before implementing them?! "he is a jealous God by his own account" What a sucky religion you subscribe to. Why didn't you choose Mahayana Buddhism instead? "human secularlism is to "evolve" into a new religion, who will be the God of it" The same God that you already worship. Just don't treat the bible as unchangable or inviolable. They might have made mistakes, like thinking the Sun revolved around the Earth. God wasn't very smart in those days. In fact, it seems that God has never revealed a single bit of verifiable scientific data ever. The scientists had to discover everything themselves. "Lo and behold, I am standing all alone right in front of the bishop" And if you were standing all alone in front of a sheep, would that have been a sign too? Or what if a butterfly had gone past? Do you understand Law of Large Numbers? "He absolves those of us who come to him of our own free will by his grace." Without preconditions. Wow. Rape and pillage, then say "I'm a Christian". You're as bad as Muslims. "Maybe he will absolve the rest (like Paul) in the end. I don't know...and I don't really think I am suppose to know. But he does. So ask him. Not me. HIM." Why don't you ask him and let me know? When I attempt to ask him I don't get any reply. Same deal with the Hindus. I feel sorry for the Hindus. No matter how nice they are, they go to Hellfire, while Christian rapists go to Heaven. So sad. "Where does it say in the Gospels of Jesus Christ to go out and harm the innocent children?" Where does it say that the children are innocent? If they are non-Christian, they're going to hell anyway, what difference does it make? "Nowhere. God would not want this." Funny, he wants to send Hindus and me to hell. Why not innocent children as well? "Nor would I or any real christian." A real Christian is one that accepts God, sins, then asks for forgiveness. It is completely straightforward. Muslims do the same thing. "Nor any athiest who cherishes the concepts of morality and good versus evil." Yes, the Golden Rule. "But somewhere in your own dillusional mind you have condured up enough hate about Christians to label them and me as baby killers." It's not me that did it. It's the bible, saying that sinners are forgiven if they accept Jesus. What sort of entrance criteria to Heaven is that? "Even committing fornication in our mind with a woman outside of our own marriage is sin in the eyes of the Lord. Tought road to follow. But thats where the grace c Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 10:33 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Even committing fornication in our mind with a woman outside of our own marriage is sin in the eyes of the Lord. Tought road to follow. But thats where the grace comes in, for it clenses us of that stuff and keeps us washed clean in God's eyes. Cool idea in my opinion" Rape and murder can be added to the list of absolvable sins. BTW, how do you know that bit of the bible about "mind sex" isn't wrong, the same as the sun revolving around the earth? It seems to me like God would have given us freedom of thought, given that it doesn't harm anyone else. You wouldn't believe what lesbians can get up to in my mind. "the Bible was required reading in all classrooms for the first 70 years of our nations history" Have you forgotten the Golden Rule? How would you have liked it if it was the Koran that was required reading all those years? Or Karl Marx? "That is the danger of your secular humanism to me...for if left totally to our own druthers with no direction from above, we do have the capacity to drift so far from the mark of morality that we soon end up distroying each other again" It was Christianity that gave us that capacity to wander. The bible is flexible enough to authorize guilt- free mayhem. Everyone else has to use the Golden Rule. So in a non-religious country like Taiwan, you can see what they came up with naturally - feast your eyes on the glory of SECULAR LIBERAL DEMOCRACY! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 10:34 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, "Given the way you sold this thing, I had a right to expect a racier first paragraph" I added the love and sex at the end. I had already written the document, so I was just appending to it. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 10:36 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee, LOL...what a hoot...good quote... "I remember an old country lawyer telling me once that there were three classes of people he could pretty well expect to lie under oath, so he just expected to be ready for it; preachers, teachers, and policemen." The pot calling the kettle black...as if lawyers are the trusted source for all truthful information. Truth be told, only God can't lie. He can't because it is a sin and he is sinless. We mere mortals can and all do at one point or another. It is hard to try not to on a consistant basis, for there are those little white lies like when you tell someone you don't like to have a nice day. Life is full of situations where we are tempted to twist the truth around for our own benefit and we all fall prey to it at times. I was thinking about Paul's comments that it is people like me that murder little children. Now I took offense to that. But this morning I realized that I need to come clean about something that does point to some truth in what Paul says...a confession, so to speak. For only in our bearing our own souls can we hope to maybe help others see the folly of doing certain things. Much has been said about human secularism on these posts. And that ideal says that we are to decide our own destiny. Not God...just us collectively, mapping out our future. I wish I could believe in that. But I can't. Take the concept of abortion. Human secularists say that it is fine to terminate a pregnancy if it would cause undue harm to the parents or possibly the child. Indeed, it is the law of the land. What isn't seen is not much on our minds. And that God never favors that route. And so it was back in 1976 that I and my girlfriend faced the challenge of a pregnancy. We had a choice to make and it was either abort the child (as many a friend was saying because we were not married and didn't have two nickles to rub together and were unsure of the future) or we could have the child. I wish now that I had had my father to bounce that off of. But he had died of cancer the year before and my mother wasn't over that yet and was still immersed in her own struggles with alcoholism and my sisters were "Oh yeah...abort...we all have had to...no big deal". And so we made that fatal decision to end the life of our child. We wnnt down from Hew Hampshire to Boston (where it was legal...always the liberal state) and Liz went in for the operation and it was done and she nearly bled to death because we had waited so long. But she didn't. I remember the empty feeling I had when it was done. And how pale she looked. And so we went back up to New Hampshire and tried to continue. But something had changed in her. She began to treat me with disrespect and arrogance. She was no longer the Woman I had met and fallen in love with. It was more a woman who no longer wanted me in her life...on to Part II Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 10:46 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Part II... And so the relationship fell apart and she dumped me. Now I look back and see how the simple decision to abort caused such a cascade of consequences in my life. How I found disprespect where there had been respect before. How it took me years to even begin to look at that decision in an honest way. How it also took me many years before I was truely ready to take responsibility for my own actions...all of them. How I had allowed friends to make that decision with me, when afterwards I came to find out that many had their own hidden agendas in it. How I truely didn't have my heart pierced by absolute sorrow and grief and cry for that child until I was watching Jesus being whipped within an inch of his life and then crucified on the cross in the "Passion". How only then did I come to fully understand the magnitude of what I had done. That God had put a very special and unique combination of DNA genes together during fertilization to being a new human's life and that He loved that child from the start and that that child had a purpose in life and that that child was meant to be someone very special (as we all are to be). And that that child was to be the first born of my own family. ANd now I look at my two children and realize that if I hadn't aborted that first child, they would not have come to be...but that still can't compare with the loss of the first child. I had acted so damn arrogantly in the face of what God had done. I had taken his creation and killed it. And for what? Convenience. And because I could. And because I didn't really have a clue as to what life was all about. Human secularism is not the way...for we are all myopic in what we do as we can't see the consequences until it is often too late. God alone sees into the future and no arguing on these posts will change that. No, we humans were born with limitations and even Science will never get us to where we alone want to be. Speaking of science...did you know, Paul, that in cellular biology it is now known that the cell is far more complicated and full of components and elements numbering in the hundreds of millions...so that all mathematicians who have looked at probability all come to the same conclusion. That it would take a trillion times a trillion times a trillion years for one cell as we now know it to have "evolved" from the so called primordial soup. Science is wonderful (remember, I am a biologist) and it is now leading many with an open mind to the realization that there is such a thing as creation through intelligent design...not random evolution. Bad news for the human secularists. Bad news. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 11:01 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I love these chats with you...so good to debate them... "It was Christianity that gave us that capacity to wander. The bible is flexible enough to authorize guilt- free mayhem. Everyone else has to use the Golden Rule. So in a non-religious country like Taiwan, you can see what they came up with naturally - feast your eyes on the glory of SECULAR LIBERAL DEMOCRACY!" I am reminded of the old aedage..."the proof is in the pudding". There are examples of different types of democracy throughout the world. I don't have a problem with that. And I personally would much rather live here in the US than in Taiwan. Not so sure why it is so glorious. Maybe you can elaborate. Seems like that old major neighbor, Communits China, will be swallowing it up sometime soon anyway, for they are on a collision course and we will have to see. I didn't know that Christianity alone gave us the capacity to wander. How so? And you can go ahead and say that the bible is responsible for all the mayhem, while I say that it is simply power humgry men that are always behind the mayhem (even some who are religious leaders of various religions). No, God doesn't say for us to go out and pillage. He may have told the Israelis to take their heritage by force...but then as he made it all and he was the chessmaster, that was his call to make that move. Interesting how, when they did stray and didn't listen to his prophets, then he would bring one of the neighboring arab nations down upon them to punish them. Much like any father with real concern for a child stepping too far out of bounds would do with a spanking or such. Of course, now we are not to spank our kids. No...just find a kinder way to teach them the lesson. Only some have twisted that to letting the child lead. Sad to watch among some of my neighbors. But back to humanity in general. God doesn't say "lets go out and wander about and cause Mayhem". If you think so, show me the passage. No...he said to follow his laws and obey his edicts and listen to his prophets. Now we wouldn't know a prophet if we were to meet him at a social gathering to save our lives. We really do seem more isolated from God than ever...and drifting further away. This nation was created as one nation under God. Once we get fully away from that, he might just come and spank us. I fear him and his anger the most, for his wisdom is real...and secular wisdom is just temporal and will not last. The proof will be in the pudding. Too bad we won't be around to see some of these secular nations collapse. As for Islam...as I said, God does use that religion for his purposes when he wants to. And he certainly called it when he said that Ishmael would be the father of a great nation...but then when you read on he said that his descendants would be like wild asses and befriending noone. Sounds like Osama. I think that he can use anything that we humans create when it suits his purpose and that purpose is something we will never ful Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 11:27 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fully comprehend. And so I bow to Gods wisdom above all...including Human Secularism. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 11:28 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "This nation was created as one nation under God" And Taiwan, which is just as nice a country to live in as America, was created with no God. So? BTW, China cannot conquer Taiwan, it is protected by a moat. And due to the fact that they have a humanist government, Taiwan get protection from all other humanist countries in the world AS WELL. You mentioned abortion. First of all, since you don't know which bits of the bible are correct or not, you don't have the One True Interpretation of the bible. No-one does. So you don't know whether it is correct or not. In my opinion, every child has the right to grow up in a loving stable family. And you knew that you couldn't afford to give a child that environment. It would have been a lose/lose situation. You probably would have divorced anyway, and the child would have only had one parent. Not nice. And you would have been burdened and not happy. And the child wouldn't be happy because you're not happy. So instead you waited until you had a stable environment in which to bring up a child. You made the right (humanist) decision, and I applaud you for that. I suggest you find a God that allows you to be happy that you did the right thing. That God is the one who invented secular humanism. That is the God that was with you when you had the abortion. That God was the one who said "you are not hurting anyone else, so it is OK, you are doing the right thing". That God is the God of love. True love. That God is not vindictive and doesn't send atheists or Hindus to hell. That God doesn't try to make you feel guilty when you didn't do anything wrong. Only stupid religions make good people like you feel guilty when they did nothing wrong. Christianity is just one such stupid religion. Change religion, for your sake and for mine. Read this again: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mukto-mona/message/16904 Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 11:44 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, Read your piece and thought it interesting. However, regarding the following excerpt: what is the IQ of the women you run with anyway (LOL). You make me feel like some Amazon in comparison and I'm thinking of cutting off my left breast so I can get a better shot at those male natives across the river with my bow and arrow. "Sex from a woman's point of view is both the physical feeling, the acknowledgement that the protection still remains because the woman is still proving attractive or useful. But remember, the protection should remain even if these things cease, so the empathy must show through. From a male point of view, it is an acknowledgement that the woman thinks he is so protective and so benevolent that she thinks he is god personified, and is willing to do anything he wants at his command. But of course, the empathy means that he doesn't do anything that she doesn't want him to do. The dual empathy is what makes it more than just the physical side. " Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 12:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "God does use that religion for his purposes when he wants to." You know Randy, it's fun to debate with you, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that wishes you'd quit talking like you're God's personal bullhorn on earth. You don't know what God wants anymore than anyone else does. Lee's right, it's really off-putting. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 12:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "That God had put a very special and unique combination of DNA genes together during fertilization to being a new human's life and that He loved that child from the start and that that child had a purpose in life and that that child was meant to be someone very special (as we all are to be)." Actually Randy, God puts together 400 million "unique combination of DNA genes together...was meant to be someone very special." per dose of ejaculate. In other words "God" isn't taking any chances and he's got plenty of backup if one doesn't work out...he's got 400 million minus one to take it's place. In fact, if you perceive each DNA combination to be "s special child ordained by God" then we have to view each sexual experience, as far as the sheer wastage of human life, as being more catastrophic and killing more people than all natural disasters, added together, since human life began. 400 million minus one people die each time you have sex with your wife. I think you need to gain a little perspective on your life Randy. It's wonderful that you were saved from a life of tragedy and dissolution, but a little humility will gain you the wisdom that your salvation was not a metaphysical event of cosmic proportions. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 12:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The pot calling the kettle black... Don't make the kettle less black does it? .we all fall prey to it at times. This is your means of excusing the fact that you wrap yourself in the mantle of God and then simultaneously lie through your teeth? It don't wash with me Randy G. Hypocricy and lies, and you laugh it off when you're caught at it. Yeah, it's a hoot alright, ain't it? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:04 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, I'm beginning to think both Paul and Randy should stay together. Basically Randy...I think you are very off base about secular humanism and also about the religious beliefs of the Founders. You spout the view that I do not ascribe to. Do you remember the two most important commandments of Jesus? 1) Love God 2) Love thy neightbor as thyself (basically do unto others as you would have them do unto you) And on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.... Well, the second one is humanism upon which all our ethics is based on which a lot of law is based. The first, says to love God. Well, I don't want my government mandating to me that I must love God even if you think as a fundementalist that this is God's law. So....our deist forfathers said...'the first law we are going to reserve to the private sphere' and "render unto Caesar that which is Caeser's". Muslims also have some things written in their faith that could indicate secularism. I mean...do you really want the government to practice, "an eye for an eye"? or other nonsense? The problem with a literal interpretation of the Bible and the marriage of church and state is that it gives the clergy too much power to interpret God's law...and like in the Middle East, the clergy become political vying for power based on their interpretation of everything. "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Our government is set up for everyone's interpretation counting...not just the Pope's. I mean there is no utopia...unless you are waiting for a religious utopia as prophisied at the end... and most people don't believe the Pope is Jesus. Oh, and, by the way, let yourself off the hook about the past. Period. Do you want people like Paul telling you what is right and wrong? And what the laws are going to be? No way. You are better off if a larger group of people decide. And I certainly don't want the clergy to have a lawmaking role. Influence is fine but no more...keep them out of the direct power role. "There is a time for every season...and every purpose"...and humankind will go through periods of too much secularism and periods of too much compulsion in religion. And that is OK. You want the government flexible enough to accomodate each age as there is a lot to be learned from excesses in each. There shoud be no boundaries on a personal relationship with God..but there should be boundaries on religion's role in public life... cont thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 400 million minus one people die each time you have sex with your wife. That's a radical redefinition of what constitutes a person. I doubt even the Pope would go that far. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because if there are no boundaries on the role of religion in public lif...you get compulsion and addiction...no individual rights...like the Taliban. Both side of the argument are wrong. WE as humans need choice...both and. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Fusion/separation, boundaries/no boundaries...balance is moderation. Limits/no limits. both and. This means that when things get out of balance for a healthy society the force pushing it to the middle is powerful and can often overswing into one big codependant nation of coercion. Some people need more limits and structure in life in order to grow but other people(and sometimes the same people later on) ...do not. You have to accomodate all the different needs of people which may be opposites. Some need freedom like former slaves or a cult member...some need community. Paul needs freedom Randy and you seem to need limits and structure right now. Five years from now...that could be the opposite. There will always be some tension on the church/state issue and it can get out of balance. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Sex from a woman's point of view is both the physical feeling, the acknowledgement that the protection still remains because the woman is still proving attractive or useful. But remember, the protection should remain even if these things cease, so the empathy must show through. From a male point of view, it is an acknowledgement that the woman thinks he is so protective and so benevolent that she thinks he is god personified, and is willing to do anything he wants at his command. But of course, the empathy means that he doesn't do anything that she doesn't want him to do. The dual empathy is what makes it more than just the physical side." Actually Paul, this is pretty creepy. Do you know this is extremely close to the what the Mohammedan hadiths say about Sharia laws regarding women in the Quran? Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:39 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "That's a radical redefinition of what constitutes a person." That's Randy G's definition of what a person constitutes and I quote: "God had put a very special and unique combination of DNA genes together during fertilization" As far as the above definition of a person goes...there are 400 million persons in each quantity of male ejaculate. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:43 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The key words would, I imagine, be "during fertilization." JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually I'm just trying to get Randy G. to stop having sex with his wife. I'm afraid there are too many Randys running around already. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh...and Paul...boo to the winning ideology. Keep working on it...it ain't anywhere near done yet. Here's one example...you view of the biological nature of women's needs. That was somewhat true before we had such a long lifspan. Now, if you marry at 25...hit menopause at 50 and live an active life until you are 75...all those needs shift due to hormones...And men's hormones change even more drastically than women's and their needs for power changes to a need for intimacy and relatedness. All these biological assumptions are time dependant. And that is just one example. Over and out. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:50 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The key words would, I imagine, be "during fertilization." You would imagine incorrectly. As human life can be cloned from a single egg or a single sperm. Even in the "fertilizing" process, most fertilized eggs do not make it to gestation and are spontaneously aborted or reabsorbed into the women's system. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 1:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, Paul, I agree with Tammy on your take on sex. I shan't bore you with my research or my opinion here. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As human life can be cloned from a single egg or a single sperm. I don't think so. "True human cloning would require taking a somatic cell*, as opposed to a reproductive cell such as an egg or sperm cell, from a person and removing its nucleus. The DNA of the somatic cell is transferred to an enucleated egg cell. But this is not currently possible because the somatic cells are specialized and there are many genes that have been 'turned off' that we do not know how to turn back 'on'." *A somatic cell is any cell in the body other than the two types of reproductive cells, sperm and egg. These are also called germ cells. In mammals, every somatic cell has two complete sets of chromosomes, whereas the germ cells only have one complete set. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But back to Iraq...(?) JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:09 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm only kidding. I've been as off-topic as anyone. Sorry, Alaa. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "As human life can be cloned from a single egg or a single sperm. I don't think so." Wrongo Johnny Boy. To quote Carl Sagan: "Human cells can be cloned. In light of such cloning technology, would we be committing mass murder by destroying any potentially clonable cells? By shedding a drop of blood? " The potential for cloning exists within every human cell. Within stem cells which are undifferentiated, those cells can ultimately produce any other type of cell in the body. The only reason somatic (sexually differentiated cells) are used for cloning procedures, its because they are the most viable for the designated procedure. But they are not the only ones that can be cloned by any means. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition, male mice were cloned last year from the genetic material taken from two SPERM cells. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:24 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course they died, but how knows? In the future, men may not need women at all! Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, one of the mice produced from the two female mice lived. So maybe we'll achieve world- dominance after all! Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "Actually Paul, this is pretty creepy. Do you know this is extremely close to the what the Mohammedan hadiths say about Sharia laws regarding women in the Quran?" I just tried to clear my mind and imagine that there was chaos and I had a pyramid and no-one else did. TREMBLE AND OBEY. There's some sort of adrenalin rush with the power, like a bright light. And when I was thinking of the tribal alliance changes, same thing, fear of one tribe, safety in another, a sudden rush to change tribe. Don't ever let a dictator take power in the world. You don't want to live there. At least not a male dictator. That gives me an idea... Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As human life can be cloned from a single egg or a single sperm. I don't think so. Wrongo Johnny Boy. We'll see about that. Humans cannot be cloned from a single egg or a single sperm, because two sets of chromosomes are required. You'll have to provide a link to show me otherwise. Every source I've checked confirms this to be the case. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:50 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uh Oh Paul, another idea. You are so funny. I really did enjoy your analysis...it was very good. Keep working on it because I really think you're going to get there! Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We'll see about that. Humans cannot be cloned from a single egg or a single sperm, because two sets of chromosomes are required." They can be cloned when you take the DNA material from each single egg or single sperm and combine them, OR (today in mice/ smaller mammals) you can take the DNA from the single eggs of two females and combine them. Some day in the future, you will be able to combine the DNA from the eggs of two women or from the sperm of two men. They are working on that now. You're just stuck in time John. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "We'll see about that" Ewwwww. Is this what you meant by the fact that I should fear male dominance Paul? Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, "I shan't bore you with my research or my opinion here" It isn't boring. This is science. Why don't you add a post to the thread giving details? It will make for happier marriage. Basically it is a very enlightening feeling to analyze some of these things. I've never seen these things listed before. It is interesting to then apply that to various conflicts. E.g. I've been telling my Russian friend why we're not responding the way he expected etc etc. And it was interesting to talk to a Chinese person who just pointed to the power, and go through a check list to see what the commies didn't teach. I bet no-one has come up with the separate-bed and do what you like outside set of moral codes as a solution to parents with kids. It's enlightening to eliminate fear everywhere too. I once saw someone on TV say that fear shouldn't have been eliminated, to make people look harder for work. I'd hope that that wasn't necessary. Post your opinions please, I really want to know. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, I'm just sticking with the facts, Tammy. You don't seem to realize that you're contradicting yourself. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 2:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I thought "we'll see about that" was more polite than "wrongo." You seemed so very sure of yourself. That's quite common among people who are misguided. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway JOHN...the whole issue of the debate is whether the experience of sexual intercourse is required to generate life and it isn't. Therefore, I see nothing divine in a fertilized egg. It's chances of making it to a human being still aren't that good. So what is divine about the union of egg and sperm when so much of them are wasted? Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:04 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "Is this what you meant by the fact that I should fear male dominance Paul?" The psychological training of empathy totally takes over, at least in my personal experience. When I see people I only ever think of helping them, the genetic feeling is totally suppressed. It is only from watching Iraqis that I even knew that it existed. I had heard that rapes were about power, but I didn't believe it because I didn't have that tendency myself. I didn't see anything you couldn't equally do with a prostitute. But that's because I've been domesticized. But now I know the God-like power rush those terrorists in Russia must have had. It's not adrenalin, it's some other "respect power" rush. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, I've always been in favour of mandatory taking all eggs out of females so that she doesn't have any periods and make sure every one of them is fertilized, so that we can overpopulate the planet and all live in poverty, just like the Pope wants to see in the Philippines so that he can blame rich people for the poverty so that he can trigger off a Marxist revolution by the supposedly oppressed. I'll tell you what's oppressive - religion. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "No, I'm just sticking with the facts, Tammy. You don't seem to realize that you're contradicting yourself" Nooooo you're contradicting yourself! You insisted the standard way of cloning is the only way, and I know it isn't. As long as the genetic material is complete, you don't require both a sperm and egg to clone, that's already been scientifically proven with the birth of the female mouse from two female parents. Theoretically, all you need is the complete genetic material to clone a life. Again to quote Carl Sagan: Hundreds of millions of sperm cells (top speed with tails lashing: five inches per hour) are produced in an average human ejaculation. A healthy young man can produce in a week or two enough spermatozoa to double the human population of the Earth. So is masturbation mass murder? How about nocturnal emissions or just plain sex? When the unfertilized egg is expelled each month, has someone died? Should we mourn all those spontaneous miscarriages? MANY LOWER ANIMALS CAN BE GROWN IN A LABORATORY FROM A SINGLE BODY CELL. Human cells can be cloned. In light of such cloning technology, would we be committing mass murder by destroying any potentially clonable cells? By shedding a drop of blood? Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "And I thought "we'll see about that" was more polite than "wrongo." You seemed so very sure of yourself. That's quite common among people who are misguided." Ewww, Paul maybe you should take JohnL as one of your case studies. I think he's living up to every expectation you have of abuses of male dominance. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:14 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, Paul, before I go, one of your favorite people (a Defense Department neo-con) has had the temerity to undermine your position in favor of preventative genocide: Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, explained the Administration's effort to de- legitimize terrorism in a speech last spring at the University of Chicago. "The world should view terrorism as it views the slave trade, piracy on the high seas and genocide," he said, "as activities that no respectable person condones, much less supports." JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Tammy, I've always been in favour of mandatory taking all eggs out of females so that she doesn't have any periods and make sure every one of them is fertilized, so that we can overpopulate the planet and all live in poverty, just like the Pope wants." Me too Paul. Then, as one of only two sensible people left on the planet, I can roll around in my freedom and extra cash laughing. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll try to be patient Tammy, in spite of your insults. I never said both a sperm and an egg were required for cloning. Quite the contrary. And you contradicted your remarks stating that a human could be cloned from a single sperm (or egg)when you changed your positiuon to indicate that the genetic material from two sperm cells was required. Still no link for that, BTW, but I'll be happy to wait. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy: "However, one of the mice produced from the two female mice lived. So maybe we'll achieve world-dominance after all!" I thought we were already there, Tammy. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MANY LOWER ANIMALS CAN BE GROWN IN A LABORATORY FROM A SINGLE BODY CELL. Right, a somatic cell, like I originally stated. Hello? JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "I think he's living up to every expectation you have of abuses of male dominance." Competition is not dominance. Men naturally compete to try to be the best in their chosen field (and try to choose a field that is so obscure so that they can claim to be world's best in). I'll have you know that I wrote this century's first C program, both according to NZ time, AEST time and UTC, just in case someone wanted to quibble. I've got it on video too, so suck eggs. That makes me the world's best C programmer. BTW, I am not joking and I have it on video, with commentary. My Chinese relos have some weird generalizations about white people anyway, so I don't think any harm was done to your reputation, don't worry about it. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "I thought we were already there, Tammy." No, if you want to dominate, you have to pledge allegiance to cash, not workmates. You need to change companies regularly so that you can demand higher and higher wages. Not just stay in the one spot waiting for benevolence so you don't lose all your workmates that you like. Sheesh. Have some respect. This is a fight to the death. There's a whole harem waiting when you overtake Bill Gates. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:34 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What do we women want with a harem? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wrong John, If you really understood the theory behind cloning you would know what you're talking about, but you don't. A single egg from one individual is theoretically all that is required, in fact, not even that. In the future...if you combine that genetic material with the other half of required genetic material, it doesn't matter WHERE that material comes from, it could be extracted from a stem cell, it could be taken from a human skin cell. It doesn't matter. All cells in the body have the required set of chromosomes to duplicate a life. Under current cloning conditions, only lower animal forms can be successfully grown from a single cell. But theorectically and maybe realistically someday, a human being can be created from a single human cell. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Right, a somatic cell, like I originally stated. Hello?" No...You insisted that BOTH an egg and sperm were required for the generation of human life and they aren't. One or the other will do with the extra genetic material from another cell from somewhere in the human body. You're changing your story because you were wrong. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:43 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "What do we women want with a harem?" What sort of question is this? One that will see you get a lower wage and us males perpetually blamed for oppressing you, that's what! Life is not about being happy. It's about being THE BEST!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:45 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "What do we women want with a harem?" Good question Louise. Perhaps a crew of latino pool boys would be a viable substitute. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:45 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I'll have you know that I wrote this century's first C program, both according to NZ time, AEST time and UTC, just in case someone wanted to quibble." Ah gee... that sounds great, but can I play that on the accordian? Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "Perhaps a crew of latino pool boys would be a viable substitute." To do what with? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All cells in the body have the required set of chromosomes to duplicate a life. Except germ cells, right? The egg and the sperm. a human being can be created from a single human cell. Right, as long as it isn't a single germ cell. That's what every source on-line is telling me. I have to go now, but thanks for the invigorating (if somewhat circular)discussion. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:50 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I blame Randy for this, incidently. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "Perhaps a crew of latino pool boys would be a viable substitute." Paul: "To do what with?" You have to ask?? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh yeah, and in case you're wondering - SECOND PLACE CAN STICK IT UP HIS ARSE - LOSER!!! Join the tribe of humanists. WE FUCKING ROCK! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:54 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL: "I have to go now, but thanks for the invigorating (if somewhat circular)discussion." Damn. And I came in just as it climaxed. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "You have to ask??" Yeah. You want to have sex with multiple latino pool boys at once or a new one per day or you just want drinks brought or what? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All of the above. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I missed one of your entries... You insisted that BOTH an egg and sperm were required for the generation of human life and they aren't No I didn't. I said a somatic cell was required for cloning. One or the other will do with the extra genetic material from another cell from somewhere in the human body. But that means that one germ cell in and of itself isn't sufficient, so we basically agree, except for the remark about 400 million people...but I don't want to get into that again. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Right, as long as it isn't a single germ cell. That's what every source on-line is telling me." See this is why I hate the internet. Someone googles a tiny piece of the puzzle and they think they're experts. Suddenly they see God. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:00 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I don't recall any empresses having a harem of men. You've asked for the equivalent of that. Have times changed? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well I thought they had, but apparently not. However, hope springs eternal. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:04 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "But that means that one germ cell in and of itself isn't sufficient, so we basically agree, except for the remark about 400 million people...but I don't want to get into that again." No we don't agree. I said a single sperm or egg is all that's required. You don't need a sperm AND an egg. You can work with just one and still get what you want. YOU were the one arguing that reproducing human life required some form of sexual reproduction even if it means only extracting sperm DNA and putting it in an egg. I said no. One egg or one sperm will do (or not even that) and you're set. Get your other genetic material from your under your fingernail for all I care...you can still create life. Ergo your pro-life argument is not true. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:05 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First off Paul, all research shows that on balance, religious people have better sex! True.... Views on the purpose of sex...are different in some religions like Catholicism. Sorry...I'm not big on the need for 'protection'. I have my own boundaries thank you. Studies show relationships cycle every 7 years or so...from a fused 'in love', to independance and back again. I do have a need for safety in any intimate relationship thank you. In other words...don't physically hurt me or psychologically abuse me. Studies show, that in intimate relationships, men often have a need for acceptance. The whole thing of 'god personified' is really a need to be appreciated.(read Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus). Of course a paternal transferance is not unusual as is the tendency for gazing. My husband has no fantasies of 'women doing anything at his command'. That must be specific to you. Every human being has different needs, conflicts, fantasies. You would have power fantasies I would suspect...you often display them verbally. Women have learned that there are many different kinds of personal power. At age twelve, they realize all the boys in class are going ga ga so I must have power in how I look. A sexual power. More educated women often grow out of that nonsense as they acquire other kinds of personal power. Also, they have learned how to actively participate by being assertive rather than agressive. Certainly testosterone plays a role in a male dominance drive. But that changes at mid-life. For women...sex can be purely physical, purely la la land in love, perfuntory, wild and crazy...the 'madanna or the whore complex' all depending on the day, year, person, partner, etc. If you want to have real empathy...I suggest you ask what they need because I guarantee you from what you wrote...intuition won't do it. Women are human like anybody else...their moods change...asking for what you need from each other always helps. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey JohnL, with all this quibbling trying to prove that two cells are actually a human, I do hope that Iranian girls being raped as we speak are on your list of things to be concerned about, right? I never hear much about that from isolationists on the right. Never seen any protests about that. Care to explain the "life ends at the US border" theory? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "Well I thought they had, but apparently not. However, hope springs eternal." It is difficult to tell the difference between the modern day woman and the feminazi Marxist propaganda. That's all. Just confirming. I'm a scientist. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:09 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a pretty basic piece of the puzzle, Tammy, and everyone from NPR to various university websites seems to back me up. NPR is God to many of our liberal friends, by the way. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, come to think of it, the original response was "what would I do with a harem" as if it was obviously irrelevant. You should have responded "rubbish, times have changed" to her, not make me have to investigate. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Care to explain the "life ends at the US border" theory? You really do live in a parallel universe, don't you? JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Louise, I don't recall any empresses having a harem of men. You've asked for the equivalent of that. Have times changed?" No, but there were rumors about the Empress Catherine of Russia...but who knows if they were true. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:14 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "It's a pretty basic piece of the puzzle, Tammy, and everyone from NPR to various university websites seems to back me up." You're not a scientist are you John? Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:14 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul...You wrote that men will naturally try to excel at their chosen field and will naturally pick a narrow field to excell in. Not so. Pscchologists in organizational behavior or personell management testing for job suitability will tell you that people natually pick jobs that they are happy doing and that the ones that pick a narrow field to excell in are a CERTAIN TYPE of person...fact finders like to become experts. They like to make judgements...not so with other character types. Again...this is entirely specific to you. For further information...go to.. www.kolbe.com/ and take a test. Its around forty dollars. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John, You're expressing your fledgling ideas in internet jargon. There is so much more to the replication of DNA and cloning. You were trying to take a pro-life stance by arguing a subject you really know nothing about. That was your first mistake. You should have stuck to the moral outrage position. That's one that can go on forever without anyone conclusively proving their point. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, "My husband has no fantasies of 'women doing anything at his command'" You haven't seen him raised in an environment where he was not taught empathy and allowed to be selfish like everyone around him and then suddenly been made dictator of Iraq. Unless you think you've got the equivalent somehow? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ergo your pro-life argument is not true. I never made a pro-life argument! I've just been talking about what kind of cells are required for cloning all bloody afternoon! I give up. I'm not feeling very pro-life at the moment. Randy will have to take up that cause. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:22 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul I'll have you know that my husband once wrote a program that sold for 2500 dollars liscensed to a Fortune 500 company at 50% royalty. And you know the standard royalties. Hehe. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, "You really do live in a parallel universe, don't you?" I've seen too many Americans say "200,000 dead in Bosnia is not in our national interest", including Colin Powell. So much for the sanctity of life. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Yeah. You want to have sex with multiple latino pool boys at once or a new one per day or you just want drinks brought or what? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:56 pm | # " "All of the above. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 3:58 pm | # " Louise is my new hero. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, I wrote an operating system from scratch. http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdos/ Public domain, not Gnu Virus Licenced too. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I never made a pro-life argument! I've just been talking about what kind of cells are required for cloning all bloody afternoon!" Of course you were John, otherwise you never would have started the whole argument. And you were wrong about the somatic cells being required as well. Theoretically, you can take the DNA from two GERM cells to make a complete set of chromosomes and under the right conditions...that will generate life. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:29 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm impressed. By the way, my husband is a lot smarter than I am. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, "fact finders like to become experts" I've seen men fiercely competing in pumpkin-growing competitions. The documentaries I have seen is that men are depressed after losing while women are just disappointed. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes! Louise is my new hero too! thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Boy, this one is smokin' today!! My computer's getting hot. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've seen too many Americans say "200,000 dead in Bosnia is not in our national interest", including Colin Powell. So much for the sanctity of life. You seem to think that wiping out Egypt would be in your own national interest, so you're hardly in a position to lecture anyone on the sanctity of life. Remember this? Carpet bombing is the only thing that will keep the free world safe. They are not part of the free world, so their deaths don't matter a damn. Only the free world matters That's you, Paul. That's all you. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul those men have a combination of fact finding talents and implemenor talents. Probablty technicans. But that is not your point. You are saying that men are competitive and like to win at whatever their chosen field. That is different than being an expert. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, I don't like to see monopolies, so was going to improve it until I had something to compete with Windows, such that commercial operators had public domain code to use as a base, and start competing with Billy Boy. It is funny how those who are so jealous of Bill Gates want to sacrifice Iraqi human rights in an attempt to bring him down with revolutionary socialism instead of actually working and contributing some code to PDOS. I was so keen I actually made efforts to PAY Iraqis to enhance it. Basically I am INTP so I only work in fits of passion and have lost interest in that particular project. I ported GCC to MVS 3.8 as well (24-bit, 16 meg) and MVS 31-bit as well. http://www.spftools.com/downloads/gccmvs.htm Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, I am plotting genocide of non-humanists to protect humanists. You on the other hand were turning a blind eye to innocent Iranian girls being raped by Mullahs. Big difference. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I ported GCC to MVS 3.8 as well (24-bit, 16 meg) and MVS 31-bit as well." So have I, but I've only admitted it here and in confession. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:41 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Billy Boy's boys called for my husband to come work DIRECTLY for Bill Gates once but they couldn't afford him. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:44 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wow, Thinker, does that mean you're rich? Need any new friends by the way? Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:45 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, I'm not free unless I can go anywhere and have a C compiler available so I don't have to write utilities in assembler. MVS is one environment where GCC was not available because it was EBCDIC. It wasn't until I ported it myself that I finally felt liberated. I specialize in C. I wrote a C runtime library for all these environments. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Tammy, I'm not free unless I can go anywhere and have a C compiler available so I don't have to write utilities in assembler. MVS is one environment where GCC was not available because it was EBCDIC. It wasn't until I ported it myself that I finally felt liberated. I specialize in C. I wrote a C runtime library for all these environments." That's okay, most of us end up with a small drug dependency problem at some time in our lives. We're glad you shared with us. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Not by my standards. But not hurting. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, I am plotting genocide of non-humanists to protect humanists. You on the other hand were turning a blind eye to innocent Iranian girls being raped by Mullahs. Big difference. . Yes. You regularly come unhinged and most Americans do not. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are already a friend. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "That's okay, most of us end up with a small drug dependency problem at some time in our lives. We're glad you shared with us." No wait, I forgot internet protocol...I'm supposed to google Paul's post and try to pretend I know what the hell he's talking about. "You are already a friend. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:53 pm | " Thank you Thinker, I consider it an honor to be your friend. I need all the smart friends I can get...hoping it rubs off someday. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, explain to me why Iranian girls being raped before being killed so they don't go to heaven don't matter a damn, but getting unwanted crack-addicted children out into the world is so damn important? In what way is that "unhinged"? Has the Christian Right got the right-wing equivalent of Marxist propaganda? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And then there's the audacity of watching those crack children grow up and live in dumpsters and rationalize that away. You people make me sick. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 4:59 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Same to you Tammy. Same to you. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:00 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, your original position: human life can be cloned from a single egg or a single sperm. Your position now: Theoretically, you can take the DNA from two GERM cells to make a complete set of chromosomes and under the right conditions...that will generate life. I admit I thought you needed a somatic cell, but that's what every source I could find, including university websites, kept telling me. And I wasn't making a pro-life argument. You shouldn't confuse me with Randy. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually Paul...They have gotten pretty good at knowing how to save those babies from psychological ruin. I say save them...but use severe punishment on anyone that rapes. Actually..you fascinate me with a certain naivete about the power of life and death people hold over each other. In business...if you wanted to use a value judgement, you could say that businessmen murder people every day. Certainly politicians do. How much fat in a McDonald's burger, environmental/cost decisions, car design, roadway design, how many police vs. museums, etc? thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, my love, your compassion is in the right place, but perhaps it would extend further if you put down the sledge hammer. To quote a famous Canadian: "The medium is the message." In your case, the medium is drowning out the message. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:13 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, I'm not sure what you're saying. All I want to do is spread human rights all over the planet, including the unconquered territory in Pakistan where slaves are still sold, and try to ensure that no-one has to live in fear. Of course there will continue to be crime in every country. But at least make it illegal!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:14 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not a member of the Christian Right, Paul, so I couldn't say. Anyway, it's not America's job to go out and rescue the whole world. Not all of our children want to grow up to be soldiers, you know. We're already pulling more than our fair share of the weight, so why don't you put your own damn life on the line and do something for a change. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Every day...I appreciate more the value of human rights. You go for it Paul. But please wake up and include women's rights. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, answer my question on the sanctity of life, instead of disparaging the Australian soldiers who are right now bringing human rights to the Iraqis as requested, you know, sanctity of life and all that. Just tell me why Iranian girls don't matter a damn, but American dogs do and American cells do too. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey JOHN!!! "human life can be cloned from a single egg or a single sperm." Read it again!!! I still say you can clone a human life from a single egg or sperm cell. How may f**king times do I have to repeat myself??? Are you dsylexic?? You don't need TWO eggs, you don't need TWO sperm cells you don't need ONE sperm cell and ONE egg!!! All you need is one single germ cell to begin the procedure of extracting and placing another chromosome strand of DNA to complete the chromosome set!!! Do you get it NOW!!! One single sperm or one single egg!!! Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:20 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, what women's rights did you want? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:20 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forget it John, The subject is now latino pool boys. So let's move along...we've more important things to discuss. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:22 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well certainly NOT sharia! thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, Like Thinker I see you as a softee and much of your extreme rhetoric as just that...rhetorical speech. Am I wrong? I'm guessing that as a theoritician that you'd never expect people to implement your plans. Please tell me I'm right. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, you'll probably have to be patient in Afghanistan. Rome wasn't built in a day. Maybe if the left-wing can be destroyed we can fix the lot of the Aborigines too. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, the genocide of non-humanists can almost certainly be avoided if it is done strategically. But at least define the enemy! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes but we are really going backwards when the President of Iraq marries his third wife! thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wasn't disparaging Australian soldiers. I was disparaging you. I never said Iranian girls didn't matter. It seems everyone's putting words in my mouth this afternoon. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, "I wasn't disparaging Australian soldiers. I was disparaging you" I provide the funds for the soldiers. The soldiers don't mind. Ask them. They're happy to free Iranian girls even if you don't give a rat's arse about them. The stumbling block is not enough military willing to help free the slaves. The stumbling block is the Christian Right and the Marxist Left who don't give a shit about the Iranians. Both of them so hypocritical it makes me sick. Why do you pretend to care about the unborn child when there are troops ready and waiting to help the Iranians and you refuse to send them in? Don't do it because of assumptions you made about the soldiers. Ask them if they think it's noble to do so. They do. If you 2 week's worth of US road toll as more important than 70 million Iranians living in state-slavery, just say so, and say that only American life matters. Just say so. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, who's going to determine who the non-humanists are? Personally, I think you are still a little fuzzy on that, so I hope it isn't you. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't do it because of assumptions you made about the soldiers. Ask them if they think it's noble to do so. They do. I actually know some of the Marines who are serving in Iraq right now, and if they could read the stuff you're writing, they'd think you were nuts. Again, Paul, I say you should go off and risk your own life for a cause, if you feel so strongly about it. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Why do you pretend to care about the unborn child when there are troops ready and waiting to help the Iranians and you refuse to send them in? " Paul, even a scientist should know that the "knight in shining armor" view of the world is a fairy tale. This sort of ideological manipulation may be good for inspiring the ordinary poor sot in the army, but it rarely, if ever, achieves the kind of Nirvana you would like to see. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:54 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The stumbling block is the Christian Right and the Marxist Left who don't give a shit about the Iranians. Both of them so hypocritical it makes me sick." I don't think it's that no one gives a damn about the Iranians, it's just that people feel they need to balance their desire for a just world with the level of aggression they're prepared to use to get it. The US feels they've overused their ration of aggression for some time. There is also the sense in most people that don't have your supreme self-confidence, that allowing self- doubt to level your need to orchestrate world events is not necessarily a negative. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:55 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, "Yes but we are really going backwards when the President of Iraq marries his third wife!" I know it should be reciprocal, but at the end of the day, isn't this the free market? So long as none of the wives are dependant on him, he can do what he wants, can't he? Married or unmarried. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 5:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "who's going to determine who the non-humanists are?" You. Anyone that isn't a democracy for starters. After that, anyone with a religion that preaches hate for someone based on race/religion/sex. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. One man and one woman at a time period. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "The US feels they've overused their ration of aggression for some time." No, it's the rest of the world that needs to change to get rid of their anti-American bigotry. "There is also the sense in most people that don't have your supreme self-confidence, that allowing self-doubt to level your need to orchestrate world events is not necessarily a negative." Whenever the government is raping women legally, if you aren't self-confident that that is wrong, you're missing something in your brain. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, "One man and one woman at a time period." What happened to that harem you wanted? If you want a harem, then dammit, you've got one. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:03 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "even a scientist should know that the "knight in shining armor" view of the world is a fairy tale" As far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of the Iranian people are our allies and this should be treated as a hostage negotiation. Force doesn't necessarily need to be used, but there's nothing immoral about using it matter-of-factly. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:05 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gee, thanks Paul. For one brief shining milli-second I had the power to determine who a non-humanist is, but then you started imposing conditions. Oh well. I'm not sure I like the megalomaniac role anyway. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul...I would honestly prefer to be raped by the government than have my husband tell me he was going to take a second wife...and if you divorced him and ever remarried...that its hopeless to really have a relationship if this is sanctioned by the culture or religion. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, "I actually know some of the Marines who are serving in Iraq right now, and if they could read the stuff you're writing, they'd think you were nuts." Tell it to this one: http://www.revue-politique.com/7,article,rp200406,09,0000x0000p0001.htm "I say you should go off and risk your own life for a cause, if you feel so strongly about it." I feel strongly that the above man, who wants to be able to give the Mullahs the hiding they richly deserve, should be unleashed. The stumbling block is not him, and it's not me. It's the Christian Right - civilians. And I'm asking you again. Why do you not care about Iranian girls being raped, but you care so much about American dogs and American cells. In fact, you care so much about American cells that you're willing to distress American women to get your way. Explain the inconsistency. Or admit you're racist against brown people. Whatever. Just answer the damn question. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:09 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Whenever the government is raping women legally, if you aren't self-confident that that is wrong, you're missing something in your brain." Because it's not as simple as that. The US needs a time of non-aggression if only to refill it's reserviors. We can't continue indefinitely expending our energies, our money, losing our soldiers. Being continually at war is no life for anybody. You can call it selfish, but within the humanist doctrine has to be an allowance for self-preservation and what that entails. And that means a time of relative peace even if absolute peace is impossible. The US should press their economic and political advantages to the task of liberating Iran...but not to the extent of using force. Not now and not in the near future. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "I had the power to determine who a non-humanist is" You did. Did you not concur with my suggestion of who the enemy was? Who do you think a non- humanist is? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Gee, thanks Paul. For one brief shining milli-second I had the power to determine who a non-humanist is, but then you started imposing conditions. Oh well. I'm not sure I like the megalomaniac role anyway." You can decide for me if you want to Louise. Tammy | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, "The US needs a time of non-aggression if only to refill it's reserviors" Sure. I'm just suggesting you stop all other humanitarian assistance to any foreigners and save it for wars of liberation. There's no better aid you can give. Also, I suggest that future wars will be much simpler. Just don't disband the old military. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:13 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, "I would honestly prefer to be raped by the government" The way it works in Iran, it's raped then killed. "than have my husband tell me he was going to take a second wife" I don't see the difference between this and "your" latino pool boys. That's just done defacto instead of officially. I don't mind if the official thing is one husband and the rest are defacto, or if they're all defacto, but I don't see why you should be prevented from having your latinos. That is a private matter between you and them. Someone was complaining recently that "times have changed but I haven't". I asked for confirmation. You wanted a free market. Fine. "and if you divorced him and ever remarried...that its hopeless to really have a relationship if this is sanctioned by the culture or religion." I have my own religion, and latino boys are there for the taking. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:20 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW John, when Mullahs have the power to rape citizens, that is no different from slavery. I thought Americans were supposed to be against slavery? But oh no, it's far more important to torture a crack baby and feel morally superior because the Pope says you are. You're as bad as the Muslims. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And you're nuts. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nope Paul. I do not agree. It is devastating for the self esteem of a female child to see that their mother has to share the husband. Sorry...its tribal. I don't buy it. I would simply opt out of marriage completely and feel like the government raped me of a joyous experience by not protecting me. Gotta go....Enjoyed it folks. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:29 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, that's fine. No children allowed if you want to have a harem of latino boys. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How 'bout Aussie boys? Maybe they don't have the same cachet as latin boys. They sure make good knights in shining armor though. You've been taking it from all sides, and you're still standing. Nah. Not standing. You're outright swinging. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, that's fine. No children allowed if you want to have a harem of latino boys. Hey, Paul. It's our harem. We decide. Now get your shoes off, and get back in the kitchen. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:40 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aussi boys are not to be trusted. Even with a country full of sheep, the koalas are disappearing. Coincidence? I think not. Pommy Bastard | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm. Sheep. Harems. Nah. I won't go there. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 6:44 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "You're outright swinging" Thanks Louise, but it was a slam dunk before it started. There is no way on earth anyone was going to be able to justify turning down an opportunity to end rape. Not even the communists raped women in their gulags. Only the Middle East has this sort of depravity. When the feminazis aren't rejoicing at things like this, when people are hair-splitting about Bush, you know something's very very rotten, and we live in a very very sick world where someone would attempt to spin the end of a holocaust as something to protest about. It was as much an exercise to find out what was wrong with our own societies as it was to help the Iraqis. We needed to refocus back on reality. Then start making some documentaries on the horrors of communism and revolutionary socialism, even worse than Nazism. Start feeling ashamed of Vietnam. Start actually fixing societies problems instead of whipping WASPs until they're red raw. Fortunately the right-wing listened to the neocons, so it's in safe hands for now. Then it'll be time to end the hypocritical Christians. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 7:08 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "It's our harem. We decide." Nope. Real children come under joint protection and deserve to be given as much opportunity to fulfill their dreams as possible. What Bush is saying now is so wonderful. There's going to be a path for everyone to follow. I think that's very important. Basically Taiwan clearly demonstrates how to pull yourself up. Iraq will be led down the same path of science and humanism. And we can fix our own societies using kick-arse science. It was good to see Arnold finally acknowledge how welcoming our societies are to immigrants. The lies from the left are horrible. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 7:13 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah, well I still want to see you barefoot and in the kitchen. Snap to it! Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 7:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, lol...you continue to brighten my day...your comment "Then it'll be time to end the hypocritical Christians" does seem accurate for some but not for others...can't paint all of one massive group with one paint brush. Me? I like the Christians who get the messages in the Bible and do try and stay on that narrow pathway that includes a humble attitude towards all others. But I do think you see all Christians as hypocritical...makes them easier to deal with. Many of my friends are Christian and there are good ones and mediocre ones and ones who set a bad example. The ones you talked about in your life were of the latter category. Anyway, I do enjoy reading your take on things...a different perspective and you certainly put enough energy into it. Why did you stop being a Christian? Didn't get anything out of it? Or was it because you saw hypocrits amid your gatherings. Noone is perfect, you know...noone but God above. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 10:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John L, Interesting...I post a couple of honest pieces in the AM and now there are 200 plus more posts...I hope that doesn't mean that as I scroll back up I will hit the "Damn Randy retoric" But if so, so be it. You said... "I blame Randy for this, incidently. JohnL " Oh well...wish I could stay on the computer all day but this week and next are crazy...tomorrow I have to go deal with Rattlesnakes (the are so damn seductive you get the feeling the Bible was right in portraying Satan as a snake) and then dive in a tank full of big marine fishes (and parasite pick at my favorite, a big batfish)...and then get ready to head out for a conference in Boston over the weekend where we will be battling over the reform of the aquarium fish trade (getting the cyanide collection methods out of it...and if you think these posts can get hot, you ought to see those posts) and so on and so forth. So I will read some more back up the list and see if I caused the cell and sperm debate with my little confession. And I do believe that God is the one who chooses the exact DNA compliment each of us ends up with. Course it might be hard to prove that to Paul, but, hey, what the heck...I am a hypocritical Christian Marine Biologist, so anything goes. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 11:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tammy, I should show this to my wife...lol... "Actually I'm just trying to get Randy G. to stop having sex with his wife. I'm afraid there are too many Randys running around already. Tammy " She'd want to shake your hand. lol. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 11:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee, You seem peeved here...can't tell cause it is email and we don't get to hear any inflections... "This is your means of excusing the fact that you wrap yourself in the mantle of God and then simultaneously lie through your teeth? It don't wash with me Randy G. Hypocricy and lies, and you laugh it off when you're caught at it. Yeah, it's a hoot alright, ain't it?" Lee...lighten up. I am a sinner just like everyone else. I only recently began to really get the God thing and I have many a small and big sin in the past. Now I do contemplate them. My laughter (lol) is because I love God more than any human...and then my family and then my neighbors and then strangers like you and paul and Tammy and others and Alaa and Zeyad and others...and hate doesn't get in anymore. I asked God several times to take all of the hate out of my life and he did. That was awesome. I still get mad at people. And I still think that terrorists are due a rude ending for all the evil they dish out. But on a whole, I do love life of late. So sorry if I upset you. I don't mean to. I am enjoying the banter here...but your message does seem a bit too intense. Is that so? I have been a hypocrite before. We all have at one time or another. But I do try not to do that anymore. Maybe you are still forsted at me missing the date on the John Kerry Photo...geeze...get over it. Life's too short. Anyway, God is awesome whether you know it or not. That isn't using him to make people like you feel bad or angry. That is just a declaration that I think he is awesome. And I am lucky to have what I have. And he played a huge part in all of that. What else can I say?! Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.08.04 - 11:34 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I did make it back up to your first reply to my AM posts and I am sad to say that human secularism doesn't involve any God. It does involve people who want to create their own God. But no, there isn't a God of Human Secularism. As for your comment on the abortion... "That God was the one who said "you are not hurting anyone else, so it is OK, you are doing the right thing". That God is the God of love. " Sorry to inform you but that God you were referring to was good old Satan in disquise. Yup...the liar...the deciever...the one who wants to destroy us humans and our relationship with the real God. See, you make one critical mistake in your comment. And that is the concept that I wasn't hurting anyone. Sorry, Paul, but as a biologist I am well aware that not only was I hurting my unborn child, I killed him or her. Pretty damn evil act in itself. And I was lead on to do that partially by the "feelings" of those around me in my life. But those feelings again...don't mean shit to God or a tree. I killed my unborn child and though you may think that that is just fine...it wasn't what God wanted me to do, nor would I have been even slightly ready to say "lets have the abortion" if I had known Him better or knew what joys parenthood would bring and what a joy it would have been raising that child. No, I did harm to the baby, to my girlfriend and to myself. I know that. You would have to experience it to understand. And someday you will...for you too will meet our maker. Anyway, I will miss chatting with you guys. May get on briefly tomorrow night...depends on how late I get in. But I won't have time to go on for many days and I do hope that in the interm, Alaa, our host here does bring the group back to reality and why we do get on in the first place. So...Alaa...please do keep us up to snuff on Iraq and may the real God that I know Bless you and your family, and Zeyad and his family and all of the innocent ones in Iraq and may He Bless a Free and Soverign Iraq. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 12:32 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "Many of my friends are Christian and there are good ones and mediocre ones and ones who set a bad example." And what is the Christian religion doing to tell those "bad examples" that they are going to go to Hell because they knew how to be nice, but instead rejected that, and preferred to sin like hell then use the "Jesus died for my sins" excuse? "Why did you stop being a Christian? Didn't get anything out of it? Or was it because you saw hypocrits amid your gatherings." Because I saw it as harmful, when people were completely unrestrained and guilt-free. You've got to scare people that they need to become humanists. I do it with bombs. You should be doing it with your stupid religion. "then strangers like you and paul and Tammy and others and Alaa and Zeyad" If you love strangers, then why don't you do the ONE THING that they want you to do? The ONE THING they want, is for you to ACCEPT their different religion (Hinduism etc) and then REASSURE them that your God is benevolent and they will get into Heaven right alongside you, because both of you are nice people, humanists, and all humanists are equal in the eyes of the Lord? I don't care if you have to lie to say this, but if you have one speck of empathy for Hindus, you should stop saying such nasty things like "you're going to Hell" and instead allay their concerns and ensure that God's arms are open to all who show empathy for strangers. Then hopefully the Hindus will reciprocate and allow you into their heaven, if they haven't already. You start. Actually, I'll start. I think you are a great guy, and in my religion, you'll be allowed into heaven. "there isn't a God of Human Secularism" True, which is why I recommend you adopt humanism instead of secular humanism. Humanism has a God. He's the one you already worship, except that he is not a vindictive arsehole that sends Hindus to a fiery Hell like the sicko Catholics told you. "joys parenthood would bring" These joys only come in a loving environment provided by financial security. I'm telling you, you did the right thing. The stinking Catholics are just trying to keep their numbers up, that's why they're laying a guilt trip on you. It's not true. That bit of the bible is wrong. They did not allow for "mercy killings", which is what you did. They are so sick they even try to stop contraception. They do not care about people. They just want to listen to sex stories so that sexually frustrated priests can then rape boys with no empathy at all. This religion is so sick for society that it should be forcibly banned to indoctrinate children with it. The hypocrisy of the Christian religion is so great that it is no different from the Muslim terrorists and needs to be wiped out. Raping children is the same whether done by Catholic Priests or Muslim terrorists. The Muslims are just more organized and more open about it. The Christians have difficulty organizing, they only do thei Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 1:13 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Christians have difficulty organizing, they only do their attacks as individuals. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 1:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, can I have an answer from the women with the latino harems about what age it's OK for girls to have sex at? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 1:17 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, "And I do believe that God is the one who chooses the exact DNA compliment each of us ends up with" Even if this were true, you can find these DNA sequences in Iranian girls. Not only can you find the sequences, but the Iranian girls are actually self-aware, ie they understand that they are being raped and they are sad that it is happening to them. Perhaps you can tell me why the Pope hasn't called for Australia to lead a coalition to go and free these poor girls, on behalf of the free world? In actual fact, last time there was something similar, in Iraq, the Pope did the EXACT OPPOSITE. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 2:07 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Randy G, Catholicism is in direct contravention of the UN Intolerance Act 2004 and when the revolution comes, you will be the first up against the wall!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 4:00 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- seriously randy...don't try and convince paul that there is a god...it is up to each individual to decide whether or not they believe in God...and no matter what you, i, or anyone says...it really comes down to whether that person is ready and willing to open their heart to accept it i suggest you just pray for him. and i suggest you paul that you please stop condemning every religion out there...again no matter what YOU say you cannot convince me, randy, or anyone else there IS NOT a god...i don't care whatever bad example or horrific monstronsity you bring up. but paul, randy, and i can agree on is this...Iraq is better off without Saddam...and Alaa will be part of the hopeful future of Iraq. oh and paul...i'm surprised that as an atheist that you supported this war...i know of basically ZERO atheists that would support something like this...since they are all humanists...and openly declare that no matter the cause or reason...war should be stopped at all costs...because all human life is finite and if you're dead...well you're dead. i'm curious as to whether this stereotype is true or not. Jason -- USA | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 7:53 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Australians are members of the tribe of humans. We are not white people, we are humans. Arabs are members of the tribe of humans. Arabs are our brothers. All Australians accept Arabs as equals. We are not racist. The people who said that Australians are racist white people LIED to you. Australia is in Iraq protecting Arab human rights. We are not trying to steal oil etc etc etc. Join us. We are proud to be humans. LOOK AT OUR POWER!!! Americans accept Australians and Arabs as equals too. We are all part of the same tribe. We will protect you. We accept you. All the free world accepts Arabs as equals. If you don't believe me, ask some Americans. Ask them if they accept you as an equal. I know that they accept you as an equal, for the same reason that they accept Australians as equal! And we don't care what religion you are either. I am an atheist. In Australia, atheists, Hindus and Muslims (both Sunni and Shiite) are accepted as equals. Australians and Arabs were allies in World War I and we will never forget the brotherhood forged in blood!!! Thankyou Arabs! We needed your help and you gave it to us!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 8:03 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason, "no matter what YOU say you cannot convince me, randy, or anyone else there IS NOT a god" I am not trying to convince you of that. There is actually no way of knowing. There are good arguments both for and against. All I am trying to do is to stop you from telling your children that I am going to go to Hell because I don't believe in God. I think that is not teaching them tolerance. "because all human life is finite and if you're dead...well you're dead." Holy mother of god! Just because when you're dead, you're dead, doesn't mean atheists don't have EMPATHY for other humans!!! That is what a humanist is! We believe in human rights for everyone, no matter what race, religion or sex. We don't consider Hindus to be inferior to us. War for human rights is noble. The lefties cannot fathom that we really are doing this partly for human rights, because they are such anti-conservative bigots that they think us conservatives would never do anything unless there was something in it for us. Disgusting animals. Do not associate lefties with atheists. Lefties are scum. Atheists are neither left nor right. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 8:10 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul: "I am not trying to convince you of that. There is actually no way of knowing. There are good arguments both for and against." AHA!!! You're a deist, Paul. I knew you weren't an atheist. You got your terminology mixed up. Now get back in the kitchen and make me some breakfast. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 8:37 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, I may be a deist if I wasn't using Occam's Razor. Also, a deist doesn't allow for the possibility that although God doesn't interfere on earth, he is still listening to us and still watching us and he takes our souls (brains) when we die. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 8:49 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm hankering for a pile of blueberry pancakes. I'll be back in about half an hour, when you have 'em ready. I'd be looking for the answer to this question then: Why do you care if you get into heaven or not? Doesn't a blue blooded atheist dismiss such ideas as heaven and hell? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 9:11 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He must be still in the kitchen. What do ya' think? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 9:54 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "Why do you care if you get into heaven or not? Doesn't a blue blooded atheist dismiss such ideas as heaven and hell?" I don't. What I care about is you putting me in an out-group. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't give a rat's arse what you think happens after death. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:05 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason, "i suggest you just pray for him" What makes you think I need being prayed for? I haven't done anything wrong. If you want to pray for someone, pray that Catholic priests stop raping Catholic boys. I have empathy for the Catholic boys. Your efforts are best spent over there. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:08 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So where's my pancakes? I need a good breakfast 'cause there's snow on the ground here. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:13 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, you're from Canada. There's always snow on the ground and you all drive sleds with huskies. You think I'm dumb? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:26 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, but thank your lucky stars for the Rocky Mountains and the Pacific Ocean. I've got my own sledge hammer in hand. So I take it you're a lousy cook. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:33 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've figured it out even better - we are allied amongst those who don't subjugate others. That is our tribe. The non-subjugators. If you are a non-subjugator, you will be respected as an equal. That's all we want. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:35 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're making progress, there my dear. Now if you could just recognize that subjugators come all stripes, and not all Christians are subjugators. Anyway, work is calling me, so I must go. (I had to settle for boring toast, by the way. You've disappointed me.) Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:40 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is a good way to put it. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:41 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And social standing is a competition about who is the most generous to complete strangers. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:45 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, "that subjugators come all stripes, and not all Christians are subjugators" Of course I know this. If I didn't know this, I would be a non-humanist, because I treated all Christians the same, instead of as individuals. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 10:47 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I donated US$200 to this party, although it looks like some US conservatives have donated more than me. How much did you donate? http://english.iraqdemparty.org/ Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 11:02 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Come on latino-harem girls, what's the age of consent? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 11:05 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Males are natural subjugators. Slavery is natural. It's either subjugate or be subjugated, the moment chaos exists. He who owns a pyramid gets to be master. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 11:12 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The terrorists are behaving naturally. An authority figure indoctrinated them with hatred, and fear of God. And America is to blame, for ignoring indoctrination of children because of its isolationist tendencies (ie American nationalism). Human rights abuses don't matter so long as they happen to foreigners. Australians are the best damn country in the world. EAT SHIT AND DIE! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 11:16 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the whole world is to blame for being anti-American bigots, suggesting American hegemony, which contributed to keeping America disengaged. And the revolutionary socialists were responsible for the left-wing media which heaped blame on the powerful, even when the powerful wasn't actually doing anything wrong, and in fact the powerful WASPs were the nicest people you could ever hope to meet. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 11:20 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aw, come on Paul. We know you want to be a latino pool boy. That's where the action is. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 12:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, do you understand what I said? All these fighters will stand down as soon as they are told what tribe they belong to. Because they will get automatic acceptance into that tribe. Spread the word on Al Jazeera etc. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 12:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Go for it Paul. Your ideology is certainly no worse than any other out there, and a lot better than some. I just wonder, though. Do you ever smile? Do you ever find joy or whimsy in this world? You are so intense, I worry for your health. I think you should get a prescription for blood pressure pills. Or a big hug every day. But since you didn't make breakfast for me, I'm withholding my hug. I'm at work, damn it. Stop replying to me!!! Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 12:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Smiling will be genetic to let people know that they are treating you properly, ie not subjugating you and instead thinking about your feelings. A joke will be the "why?" mystery turning out to be something illogical. I am INTP, so I am intense sometimes and not other times. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 1:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- E.g. the big "why?" that got me this time was "why are these Arabs not happy to be liberated?". The simple answer is "they're nutcases". The correct answer was that they had been told about tribes based on religion and race, but not about a tribe based on behaviour. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 1:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A few comments: Stop saying that responsible Muslims need to stand up (I'm not sure "moderate" is that good a word). Alaa and a lot of others have not only stood up and spoken out as much as possible, they've stuck their necks out, too! I think of "Sam" of Hammorabi fame (who seems a very serious Shi'ite), the "Religious Policeman" (a Sa'udi blogger), and a few others. As a "fundamentalist" Christian who'd love to see the conversion of the whole world (by persuasion, not force), I can't agree with the theology of Islam. However, Muslims are covered by the "Love thy neighbor as thyself" along with everyone else--and when Jesus spoke about it, his example of "neighbor" used with his own contemporaries was a "them" (see the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke). Cephas | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 1:32 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I generally respect your comments, but I'm not sure tribalism and religion are the whole problem with the Arabs. I'm sure our host, the three dentist brothers, and a lot of the other Iraqi blogs could claim lineages and religious denominations, too. You and I are also from countries where people sometimes take a lot of pride in their extended clans and take their religion seriously, yet won't throw bricks through the windows of "thems". Family, tribe, and denomination are the places where people first learn to trust or mistrust others (I'm tying together insights from both Jacques Ellul and Francis Fukuyama). In some cases, lines of trust can be cast across such social boundaries. When that happens, governments can afford to be small and inobtrusive. However, Iraq has suffered under the curse of modern totalitarianism: a regime erodes the bonds of trust that holds the little platoons of society together, and makes itself the sole and necessary bond of society--even if society's kept together by fear. Now that the dictatorial bond has been shattered, the worst elements in society have come out of the woodwork. It could happen anywhere. BTW, as an addendum to my previous post, Muslims are covered by the commandment "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor" (in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5), too--even if we disagree with them. Cephas | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 1:44 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, my dear Day-own Undah (as close as I can get to imitating a "Strine" accent--you're now free to mimic the accents of our American hegemonistic land) freedom-worshipping friend, simmer down! Yes, Reza can be pretty exasperating (the name suggests Iranian; the e-mail address, an American college student with a smattering of education in religious studies). As for the size of the universe, all it proves is that anyone who can make it by simply uttering a word has to be GREAT and worthy of the humble worship of ALL rational creatures. Besides, back in 1000 BC, King David may not have had the numbers crunched, but I'm sure you'll agree after reading Psalm 8, that even he had some sense of the created cosmos's size and grandeur. Cephas | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 1:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whew!! Reinforcements, at last!!! You take it from here, Cephas. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 2:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have been a hypocrite before. We all have at one time or another. But I do try not to do that anymore. Maybe you are still forsted at me missing the date on the John Kerry Photo...geeze...get over it. You're a hypocrite still. You lied about the caption in addition to lying about the use to which the photo was put, missing the date is merely how we proved your lies, try not to pretend that this was the lie itself, it's only the proof you lied. You had quote marks on the lie. They didn't get there by accident; it was a matched set, not a typo. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 2:29 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cephas, "Family, tribe, and denomination are the places where people first learn to trust or mistrust others" While this is true, the Arabs need to know that they can go one step higher than Arab and on to "human" and still find people willing to be tribal at that level. Like Australia. They can get protection from us and all our allies. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 6:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- randy g, and others .. perhaps you are wrong, your whole concept of God is skewed. As human beings, we have the power of thought, the power to create or destroy, the power to influence or directly affect the lives of others. This makes each of us a God imo, i think a lot of religious people get hung up on the absolute text of their particular holy book , and look skywards when really they should be looking in the mirror. My theory is that our lives in essence are essentially worthless, that there is no 'meaning of life' and the Earth and universe is simply a matter of chaos/time , but i try to keep an open mind, perhaps christianity or islam or buddhism or whatever is true, you cannot prove my theory is wrong just as i cant prove yours is either. I think when we die, thats it, electrical synapse activity dead == game over .. yet most religions insist we are so important that the universe cannot do without us even after death.. given the sheer scale and hostility of the universe , can this really be true ???????????? bepp | Email | Homepage | 09.09.04 - 7:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When donating money, put it into institutions for humanist rationalist non-subjugationists, such as the IPDP, rather than temporary improvement of standard of living. All non-subjugators have a moral responsibility (if they are humanists) to seek an end to subjugation, dogma and inhumane behaviour, anywhere in the world, in a strategic manner, choosing the least-worst option in any scenario, using our finite resources, while still paying attention to our sub-tribe (family, nation etc) needs. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 6:04 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not just a non-subjugator, I'm an anti-subjugator, are you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 7:32 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm an anti-dogma, anti-non-humanist and anti-subjugator in that order. Are you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 9:38 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Non-subjugator? What the dickens is that? I mean, I'm not out to beat up on somebody to make him do my bidding, but I'm glad Adam and his first descendants subdued the earth enough to give us, their descendants, fire, technology, domestication of animals, agriculture, etc. Paul, from your previous posts, I guess you're not an Aborigine, so you and I are both beneficiaries of earlier subjugations of our respective continents by colonists. Iraq speaks Arabic instead of Syriac because of a subjugation in the 7th-9th centuries. I'm sure our host and many others are glad that Sodom Insane got "subjugated" by a squad of American soldiers with some Kurdish Pesh Merga at their backs and doubtlessly a few Arabs giving hints! And don't give me the "anti-dogma" line. To say "God isn't" is as much a dogmatic statement as saying he is. Don't forget that "dogma" comes from a Greek word meaning "to seem". Hence, dogmas are only the axioms from which any faith--including Comte's scientific positivism--reason. And, if there is no God who has spoken, why is our idea of "humanity" any better than that of the tribal savage who thinks he isn't a real man until he's brought home a severed human head? Speaking as a "fundamentalist", I'm for letting God the Holy Spirit subjugate me by His Word (not someone else's club over my head); I thank Him for all signs that that subjugation is taking place in my life and those of others; and part of being subject to God is to respect others according to our duty to man as recorded in the second table of the Decalogue (Honor thy Father and Mother; Thou shalt not murder; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not bear false witness; thou shalt not covet anything that is thy neighbour's). Yes, Randy G. and others, I'd like to see everyone recognize in Jesus God's final revelation, Messiah, God Incarnate, etc., too. But, as the original Paul said, the weapons of such warfare waged to reach such goals are spiritual rather than carnal. But I will add as well that being subject to the 9th commandment is to recognize that Alaa and others who are horrified by the mass murder in Beslan speak as Muslims. If they may think I'm going to Hell for being a Christian but do not want to hurry me on my way thither, I can live with that. Cephas | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 12:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cephase, "To say "God isn't" is as much a dogmatic statement as saying he is" You are correct. You don't seem to be aware that I am not dogmatically atheist. I am willing to change to believe in God if I am presented with evidence. Subjugate-or-be-subjugated is a natural male response to chaos. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 1:24 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I'm not out to beat up on somebody to make him do my bidding" You would be if you thought he was going to do the same to you because you were not protected by the rule of law. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 1:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lesbians now get a mention: http://www.thinktam.com/askiraq/viewtopic.php?t=335 Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 1:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul...I am not going to read it. The ideology you had before in my view was not a winning ideology. Tammy's comment to you (and seconded by me) that your view of women sounded like the Taliban is a clue here. When you combine the liberal vote with the conservative women's vote..in the US and Australia...I think its clear that your previous treatise was a 'losing ideology'. And, American women (unlike Iraqi women just yet) would probable take up arms to resist. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 2:44 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, I do not understand your concern. I am a liberal (human rights) myself. Why are you afraid? I would take up arms to defend you. Why do you think I wouldn't? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 3:07 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am an anti-subjugator who believes that everyone has the right to not live in fear and who likes other people to be happy. Why would I not protect you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 3:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am genetically programmed to respond to seeing people smile. That is the moral behaviour pattern. And that is the world I want to live in - a smile on every face. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 3:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unnatural things like homosexuality should not be done where a child can see it. Children should be raised in a natural environment. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 3:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, thankyou WASPs for giving me the freedom of speech, including freedom to call for genocide (at least I hope it's available in Australia) in an effort to tease out the underlying behaviour. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 3:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And thankyou anti-power bigots for making WASPs so tolerant that we could start thinking in terms of protecting the entire world rather than just our country. You will be forgiven. Society is more productive if you have a smile on your face and are making amends for past mistakes by proving how tolerant you are to those in power and how much you respect their contribution to society. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:00 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you think we can stop giving the Nobel Peace Prize to terrorists now? How about a humanist anti- subjugator like Wolfowitz? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:05 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Unnatural things like homosexuality...."???????? Please explain. No. Nevermind. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, unnatural behaviour for a child to see. The children should be raised not seeing it. But if they learn about it from a schoolbook, then they can go to the gay bars if they find themselves that way inclined. More to the point - I don't like seeing two men kissing myself, and can't see why they can't keep that in private. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe Arabs don't kiss their wives. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What a surprise!!! Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Arabs understand the concept of power, and understand the concept of anti-power. The Marxists confused this with anti-subjugation. All will be forgiven. Everyone was just obeying their genes and using faulty logic. The west didn't help with their idea that people aren't born "evil", which they confused with natural subjugate-or-be-subjugated. And the Europeans are non-subjugationists, not anti- subjugationists. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aw, yes. But Arab men will walk down the street holding hands, and no one is freaked by it. Except Paul. Paul, after you have the subjugation/non-subjugation theory fleshed out in all it's glorious detail, why not give the concept of "natural/unnatural" a go. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:24 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, if you allow children to be raised in an outwardly normal society for raising children (ie like in Singapore where there is no road rage and everyone follows the law), then children can learn about the unnatural throwbacks like homosexuality from schoolbooks, and go to their appropriate special-interest group away from the sight of normal people. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ooooookay. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So all the money that is spent on weapons can be transferred to terraforming Mars, to ensure survival of our species. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WE ARE THE GREATEST SPECIES!!! We asked WHY!!! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And respected artificial things. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Paul, would you let homosexuals into heaven, if you believed in heaven? You're attitude toward homosexuality seems a little, ... well ... shall we say ... Christian?!? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 4:55 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, yes I would let natural homosexuals or natural masochists etc etc into heaven. They're not subjugating anyone or causing them to be unhappy (well so long as they keep out of my face, anyway). BTW, to tell you the truth, I wasn't really after world peace. What I was really after was an end to the dogma that speed limits save lives. That hasn't been scientifically proven at all. What is actually true is that most accidents are caused by people driving under the speed limit. Speed kills sure. Travelling at the speed limit kills!!! So bloody what? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 5:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I respect the use of power to end subjugation. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 5:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I respect the use of power to end subjugation even when there is no benefit to myself. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 7:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I respect the use of power to end subjugation, without hesitation, even when there is no benefit to myself. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 8:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I respect the use of power to end subjugation, without hesitation, even when there is no benefit to myself. I don't care if I have to kill 90% of the enemy tribe, in order to ensure that institutions are set up such that the leader of that tribe will respect the human rights of that tribe forever. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 9:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More importantly...Where is Sarmad? I'm worried. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.10.04 - 9:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In animal terms: I am AGAINST racism. I am AGAINST sexism. I am AGAINST religious discrimination. I am AGAINST dogma. I am AGAINST subjugation. I RESPECT INDIVIDUALS who VOLUNTARILY donate to COMPLETE STRANGERS (ie different race, different sex, different religion) using their OWN HARD-EARNED MONEY. I will FIGHT using my BRAIN subjugation of ANY HUMAN. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:54 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Holy cow. That last message was number 666 and it's 11th September 3 years on. And yes, I forgive the terrorists who were obeying their genetic instincts and had not been taught what the correct behaviour pattern was because we didn't understand freedom ourselves. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:59 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I will FIGHT using my BRAIN subjugation of ANY HUMAN. We'll be wanting better weapons; that one seems too often to fire spontaneously, randomly, and aimlessly, and often enough at potential allies and neutrals and/or civilians. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:08 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry Lee C. I needed to get people's reactions in a free environment to find out why they weren't reacting as I would expect. I was expecting people to be happy to be free. But it turns out that we didn't know what free was ourselves. It ain't watching 14 year old girls get shot by 18 year old men, that's for sure! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:31 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, enemy civilians are in an out-group during war. No empathy for them. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:33 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't matter what you "needed" Paul; eventually you'll go off on one of your "kill the Muslims" rants again; you can't contain yourself even after you've noticed it tends to get you talked about unfavorably. Testing the waters for the limits before your audience wanders off in disgust ain't gonna get you enough self control. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:42 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, I wanted to be talked about unfavorably. People needed to justify why all Muslims shouldn't be killed. And non-Muslims needed to justify why they didn't care about humanist Iraqis. I needed to find a way to resolve their lack of answer. The problem was that neither group had the concept of truly treating religious groups the same. They both thought that their religion was the best, because they needed to have the right one if they wanted to get into Heaven. That meant that both of them had out- groups for the other. That meant that neither had empathy for the other. No brotherhood at the human level. No equality amongst humans. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:04 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no need to kill all the Muslims. I have already sent messages to Al Hurra and I have rung up the Australian defence department and told them that we need to tell the Muslims that we are anti- subjugation. If they get that message to the Muslims, they will realise that we are anti-subjugation of even them, and since they can join that same group simply by agreeing that they'd like to be there, they suddenly find they have a brotherhood with the other group. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They have only been given the concept of brotherhood of Muslims and brotherhood of Arabs. They need to know that there is also a brotherhood of humans (thus human rights are defended), and that they are already accepted by us. No-one told them that. I sent a message to Al Jazeera as well, and various newspapers and BBC etc. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:16 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Muslims need to be told that there is a brotherhood amongst all humans and thus they have human rights, including the right to not be subjugated. The Christians need to give assurances that they will defend the human rights of Muslims. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:19 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mohammed showed that no matter how good a man is, he should never be given power, because even the greatest man in the world will fall prey to his animal instincts. We should not swear allegiance to any man, no matter who he is or what he said. That is the lesson Islam gave the world. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:22 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is complete, the religions are compatible. We are all Muslims. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:24 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can some American ask the US President to say he is a Muslim URGENTLY? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:42 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the quickest way for the war to end. The US President should say that he is a Muslim so that the Muslims have a sense of security so that they can stop fighting, and understand that we accept them fully as our own. They already have a strong concept of being a Muslim. This is the most humanist action the US President could take at this point in time. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:56 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And it will give the Muslims all over the world a sense of pride and an understanding that they are forgiven and that the final victory was theirs after all. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:59 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And hopefully Arabs and Muslims everywhere can find it in their hearts to forgive Christians for putting them in an "out group" despite all the time they spent in church. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:13 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have read the above posts regarding religion with interest. Two words everyone should be familiar with - "Perennial Philosophy" - do an internet search on the topic. There are fundamental spiritual truths that are commonly shared among all the great religious traditions. These truths find their clearest expression in the MYSTICAL tradition of each religion - that means Sufi Islam, Zen Buddhism, Esoteric Christianity (see Christian mysticism), Taoism, (not sure about Juddaism - is it the Kabbalah?). Some of its proponents stand outside any traditional religion - my favorite is Jiddu Krishnamurti. Why is it important to familiarize ourselves with the Perennial Philosophy? Because one of the root causes of the rise of islamic fundamentalism (Osama bin Laden) is that Muslims fear being overtaken by "modernism" and particularly by the spiritual vacuity that has pervaded the west. Many westerners themselves feel this same spiritual vacuum - in fact I would venture to guess that this sense underlies much of the political lefts apparent scorn for their own western tradition. Put simply they are seeking meaning, and not finding any spiritual meaning in capitalism, they have become nihilistic. Others - like osama bin Laden and extreme fundamentalist right wing Christians are attempting to deal with the spitual vacuum associated with modernity by reverting to strict fundamentalism. Both extremes are unnecessary and are fueling the "clash of civilizations". Anyone interested in resolving this mess needs to find common ground. It is found in the Perennial Philosophy and in the mystical tradition of each religion. I urge Christians to familiarize themselves with Christian mysticism (esoteric chirstianity) and I urge Muslims to familiarize themselves with Sufism and I encourage western secularists and atheists to familiarize themselves with Perennial philosophy (try Krishnamurti for starters). Then I think we'll see that as human beings we're all speaking the same language. Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 2:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have decided to become a Muslim, and I will follow Moatazila and Sufism. This is the world that I want to live in: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/6305020108.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg I hope people can forgive me for any offence I may have caused during my quest to learn the truth. I realize now that I fought against dogma as in a war, and that is why I never had empathy for the people I argued with, I only had empathy for institutions. Because I only treated people as ideas, not as human beings. I am sorry. Special apologies to Lee C. I know you are a nice guy and were trying to protect Muslims from what must have seemed to you like a religious bigot. You were right to do so. I should have realised in my life that I was meant to fight dogma without dropping my empathy for the people I was talking to. That is why I have so many interpersonal relationship problems myself. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 3:00 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The way to prove tolerance and acceptance of Muslims as equals is by the people in power taking the initiative via the institutions. Here is where I will be petitioning the Australian Government to join: http://www.oic-oci.org/ Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 3:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homo sapiens are dying right now in Iraq for NO REASON AT ALL. We're not trying to subjugate anyone. Can someone please take the initiative and petition the government to reassure the homo sapiens that they are safe, and that we FIGHT FEAR and RESPECT THEM AS INDIVIDUALS. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 3:37 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- None of them will be jailed for past crimes. They will only be jailed for future crimes where they were informed that the behaviour we were looking for was NON-SUBJUGATION OF OTHER HUMANS. Allawi needs to make that call. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 3:39 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the left wing has understood the concept of the powerful subjugating the weaker. This is actually genetic, they can feel it. However, they have a dogma that the powerful are doing it because they are evil, when in fact the powerful are rarely any such thing. Competitive for sure. As we should be. There is nothing wrong with that. But we should be competing for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the left wing has understood the concept of the powerful subjugating the weaker. This is actually genetic, they can feel it. However, they have a dogma that the powerful are doing it because they are evil, when in fact the powerful are rarely any such thing. Competitive for sure. As we should be. There is nothing wrong with that. But we should be competing for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. Competing not to subjugate but to put as big a smile on everyone's face as possible. And that includes the competition winners, whether it be in sport or charity or economic growth. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just followed my own advise and did an internet search for perennial philosohy. Discovered that its better to search under "perennial tradition". Paul - I am with you on the reasons we went into iraq. it seems to me that the loss of life for which we are personally responsible was the loss that occurred from March 19 to April 9 and scattered loss of life thereafter. How many iraqis have been killed since April 9? Who is responsible for that? I agree - iraqis are dying for no reason and have been since April 9 2003. I think that the reason you post here so often is that you supported the war and you feel personally responsible. me too. I never imagined that so many others would treat iraqi life so cheaply. Does our personal responsibility for that end at any point or are we endlessly responsible for the continuing cycle of violence? Further, is there any hope that humanism can win in the end if we try to avoid killing innocents while the other side uses them as cannon fodder? or are we to become barbaric ourselves? Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caroline, you use your brain and choose the least worst option, and do whatever you think is required to end the fighting. Petition George Bush. That's what we have governments for. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, no-one is to blame for following our genes. Our behaviour is predictable. If we aren't behaving the way you want us to behave, then suggest an alternative, using your brain. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you don't blame a lion for eating a human, don't blame a human for subjugating another human. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And so I think it is about time I finally forgave my parents, after several years of refusing to speak to them for crimes against humanity committed while I was a child. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW, that is what I have probably been competing for. I spent my whole life looking forward to the day when I turned 18 years old and would get human rights. I was watching my watch and when the time ticked over, I was suddenly so happy that I was no longer subjugated. I always wondered why no- one cared about human rights for children. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I watched "AI: Artificial Intelligence" I actually cried because I had empathy for a machine. I was wondering why no-one afforded me the same compassion in my life of being bullied and living in fear. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul - I supported the war. I am an american democrat who will probably vote for george bush (or not vote at all) because I don't trust Kerry to see it through. Something rarely mentioned in our domestic political debate is Kerry's prediction that a few thousand indochinese would be killed if we pulled out. If he was that wrong on Vietnam he could be that wrong on Iraq and our host Alaa would be among the victims. I'm not sure what choice we have but to muddle through. As human beings the simple truth appears to be that we have no solution to the problem of tyranny. What do we do now about Iran? How about 25 million people gather at the border and simply walk across and march right into Tehran? What do you think about that solution? Truthfully I don't know the answer but I don't think the lion analogy is the one we want to model ourselves on. Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From science, I now know why I intimidated people intellectually (because they were in my out-group intellectually) and why they would never drop their various dogmas. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:39 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caroline, "What do we do now about Iran?" Go up to Ayatollah Khomenei and say "I support fighting the subjugation of man by man, do you?" followed by "I forgive and forget, do you?" and "I have decided to convert to Islam and respect Prophet Mohammed, do you?". He is reacting to his genes. I fail to see how that would not work. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul - I totally respect your desire to free yourslef as well as all human beings from tyranny. But tyranny starts with the human mind. Liberation begins there: From Jiddu Krishnamurti : The First and Last Freedom: "Reality is not a thing which is knowable by the mind, because the mind is a result of the known, of the past.. (p9...Ideas are not truth.truth is something that must be directly experienced from moment to moment..Only when one can go beyond the bundle of ideas - which is the 'me', which is the mind...only when one can go beyond that..then one shall know what truth is. (p.56).. Love is not different from truth. Love is that state in which the thought process, as time, has completely ceased. (287).. Surely that is the purpose of existence - to go beyond the self-centered activity of the mind..Now is it possible, while living, to die - which means coming to an end, being as nothing? Is it possible, while living in this world...to know death? Is it possible to end all memories - not the memory of facts, the way to your house and so on, but the inward attachment through memory to psychological security, the memories that one has accumulated, stored up, and in which one seeks security, happiness? ....Is it possible to put an end to all that - which means dying every day.It is only then that one knows death while living. Only in that dying, in that coming to an end...is there renewal, that creation which is eternal. (237)...When there is love - which is not mentation, which is not ideation, which is not memory..That is the only thing that frees...(p55).Only when you discard completely, through understanding, the whole structure of the self, can that which is eternal, timeless, immeasurable, come into being. You cannot go to it; it comes to you. (p119) See what Krishnamurti says - "...love...is the only thing that frees....". To ultimately solve the problem of tyranny - we have to start with ourselves - with our own minds. That means starting with the understanding of the EGO. That is why Socrates said "Know thyself." In the meantime, we muddle through and that is all it can ever be - just muddling through. Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caroline, "Kerry's prediction that a few thousand indochinese would be killed if we pulled out" This is correct. He was stuck on a dogma. He didn't fight dogma. His dogma is that "powerful people subjugate, support the underdog". I support the underdog too. I just use my brain rather than my genetic programming to do it. Atheism allowed me to clear my brain of my natural instincts to support the underdog. I was a communist as soon as communism was explained to me in those terms by another communist. I then started an intellectual fight against communism to try to disprove it. What I needed to know was why people were ignoring the Iraqis. They are in an out-group, and we hesitate before we fight. This is natural. I use my brain to decide whether to hesitate, and said "forget it". Regardless, Wolfowitz is intellectually superior to Kerry, and I have been scientifically analyzing what he has been up to, and it matches what I would do. Truth should be objective. Therefore, Wolfowitz needs to be put in charge. But he is fighting the war as military doctrine. We need to now fight spiritually as well. To respect Mohammed before he came to power. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul - you are the ultimatelely manic blogger. I cannot keep up. You are 3 posts ahead. Give me time....... Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caroline, I think the objective of life is to make everyone happy, using science. We need to spend effort on science to understand our world so that people can be as happy as possible and people can live with minimum fear etc. If you want to donate money, donate it to an institution that is science-based. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:54 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW Caroline, the problem with the Iraqi Sunnis is that they pledge allegiance to their tribe (Sunni) rather than their brain. You basically need to say you accept Sunnis as equals, and is there anything that we can do to help you not live in fear of being a second class citizen? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 4:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They fight for the honour of Sunnis. I fight for the honour of ideology. I've been trying to beat the left- wing in my country for ages. Wondering what the hell is making these nutcases get hung up about excruciating detail regarding WMD. War to them is different. They are hesitant to fight because they imagine if they were an Australian soldier. Whereas I use science, and don't pledge allegiance to Australian soldiers. I pledge allegiance to them only after my brain has agreed with that concept. And it doesn't. My brain sees them as part of the free world, and I know that they can kick arse and achieve any victory that I want. And especially if I can make a case to the Americans, to bring in allied support. I always wondered why Americans were hesitant to liberate others, even to the point of having a dogma "right to be an enemy". Basically the Treaty of Westphalia is a dogma. I don't swear allegiance to it, nor the US constitution, nor anything or anyone. Just my brain. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh yeah, and although I personally am very afraid of fighting, I know that others have far more courage than me, and are looking for a chance to prove themselves as great warriors (so long as they are appreciated for that by everyone showing respect that they are greater than civilians). But I know that in our democracies the bottleneck is not soldiers, it is the political will to use them. So that is what I needed to find out. Why people weren't willing to end the problem once and for all so that we could have world peace. After communism collapsed, I expected Russia would join with us and finish off these despots. But they didn't. They scowled. So I asked a Russian "why?". And he couldn't put his finger on it any more than to say "we want to influence people". And I wanted to know why Russians were different from Australians, when genetically we're supposed to be the same. That is what I was brought up to believe and that is what science says. I needed to explain that. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:05 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul - again you are 3 posts ahead. you talk about genes and science and logic. You wonder why people aren't willing to end the problem once and for all so that we may have world peace. Peace based on what? obviously you beleive in the use of massive force for the ends - world peace - obviously you believe that the means justifies the ends. But if you have no fundamental understanding of the human psyche the project is bound to fail. Then your vision of humanism is no different than any other utopian vision - whether communism, islamic fundamentalism - in fact any ism. its a utopian dream isn't it and aren't utopian dreams - "isms" - where the end justifies the means - the root of all human problems? Doesn't the science of human history prove that fact? Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The basic problem with Russians is that they need to swear allegiance to their brain, then swear allegiance to homo sapiens, and then regenerate alliances (ie to Russia) using their brain, rather than dogmatically assume that they must always support Russia. They SHOULD support Russia, but they should support it using their brain, not their genetic instinct. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:24 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caroline, my dream was Utopia, that is correct. And you shouldn't use dogma to get that dream, that is true. But I wanted to use science to explain why Utopia was not possible. You say it is human psyche, but you are wrong. It is not psychology that is the bottleneck, it is the genetic instinct to subjugate others when in power. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can I add - there is certainly a great danger in elevating democracy as a political system - into an ISM - that we are so willing to fight for in some absolute sense that it is worth slaughtering everyone for - so that the ends (a democratic world at peace) - justifies the means. That is the danger. We must not fall into that false thinking. I reiterate. We must begin with our ourselves - with the tyranny of our own minds - with the EGO - this is what all the great world religions tell us - but that message has been buried beneath the fundamentalist strain of every religion. That is why i feel it is a matter of urgent necessity for each individual to understand the mystical tradition underlying each of the great religions. Start with one's own tradition. It is all there - the fact that there is only one truth which transcends all religions and cultures. It is the only hope ultimately - that we will realize that we are all speaking the same language spiritually. In the meantime - politically - we muddle through. Sometimes it is surely best to be humble. Sometimes it is surely best for all of us to be silent - to just shut up - and admit that we don't know the answer. At least that way we cause less mischief. At least that way we don't add to the chaos. Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:34 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peace based on everyone in the world fighting to end subjugation of man by man. "obviously you beleive in the use of massive force for the ends" Yes, unless a reason could be given that it shouldn't be used. And that is what I did. I put the entire world on my out-group, and then used my brain to regenerate alliances. That is why I rejected my parents as soon as I was able to. I judged them based on their behaviour rather than a sense of allegiance. Until I could find some reason to forgive their behaviour, I refused to pledge allegiance to them. This lack of allegiance means that I have been aloof all my life and thus didn't fit in with people. I spent all my time challenging them intellectually and trying to figure out why they didn't show empathy towards me like their stupid religion said that they were supposed to. Why didn't people follow their own religion? Why did they delight in subjugating the weak? I was always an outcast, and I wanted to explain that behaviour. Now I know. Thanks to Wolfowitz's need to explain what the "crazy" Muslims were up to. It is patently absurd to think that anyone would want to restore the caliphate. WHAT HAPPENS THEN? What do you want? Why do you like living in dictatorship??? Why are you Arabs not normal? If I could answer that human behaviour, I could answer it to those who bullied me etc when I was weak. Actually, I only appeared weak. I am 185cm tall. Because I had empathy and adopted atheism to clear my head, I saw no reason to fight. What for? I'm not trying to prove myself. But little guys took advantage of my passive nature to bully me. I tried to actually surrender to them, but that didn't stop them from continuing to bully me. Only when I fought them did they agree to respect me. To me that was very strange. The thing is, I took a lot of shit from people and they kept on giving it out, they didn't respect my passiveness. But eventually it got too much for me and I would fight back and demolish them. The only fight I ever lost was against my father. When we were holidaying in America. I wanted to know why no-one was obeying their Christian doctrine of having empathy. The problem is that their empathy does not counteract their genetic desire to subjugate. And I analysed the world on that basis too. And sought to force everyone to be liberal democracies, and wondered why everyone didn't agree to me being a bully, but was happy to stand idly by and see me get bullied. The Europeans did the same thing. Australia turned up for honour of ending subjugation. That was our instinct as a nation, at least the right-wing. So we defend against bullies sometimes but not others? The left-wing didn't stand up to Saddam the bully. They didn't care about Alaa etc. Why? When they supposedly care about human rights and are supposedly not racist, look how many were actually racist! Or especially religious bigots. That's what I needed to explain. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:39 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul - wrong - it is not genetic instinct that leads us to subjugate. It is FEAR. The answer lies within the human mind. It lies in understanding the origins of FEAR in the human psyche. There is most certainly a scientific basis to solving the problem but it lies in observation - observation of the human psyche. Starting with observation of one's own mind. Thats why Socrates said "Know thyself". The answer is there for anyone to discover. But it isn't some cold scientific inhuman process. This dictum - KNOW THYSELF - lies at the heart of all religious traditions. Volumes have been written about it if we can go beyond the facile, fundamentalist traditions of every religion. That is why I say - begin with the mystical tradition of each religion. You will see that the answer lies there. It lies within the human psyche - in the structure of the EGO. External systems and utopian ISMS will NEVER solve the problem. Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caroline, you are correct that we shouldn't treat liberal democracy as a dogma. You can see how that failed in India and Philippines and Venezuela. We should pledge allegiance to the ideology of humanism above democracy. And we should pledge allegiance to our brains above humanism. If you need to kill 4000 to save 50,000 then so be it. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:42 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caroline, you are a woman, you can't feel it. Men are genetically programmed to subjugate or be subjugated in the presence of chaos. Biggest guy wins. There is no restriction on human behaviour. It isn't psyche, it's a POWER RUSH that is only experienced in war. It is what gives us courage. There is actually no fear at all. Just a genetic desire to control all moving things. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:45 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And respect for whoever wins the competition! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:46 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After you have seized power by controlling all moving things, ie everyone has sworn allegiance to you, THEN you can decide what to do with your power. And that is when you can teach people empathy. We are currently teaching victimhood to blacks instead of empathy. It's a vicious cycle. That's why we are having societal problems. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 5:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul - I actually APPLAUD your lack of allegiance. I totally agree. you are completely anti- authoritarian - no allegiance to any religion, no allegiance to false authority. But forget the hypocricy you saw from the so-called "christians" who should have showed you empathy but did not. And obviously the likes of al Sadr are equally false. i'm with you through all of that - rejecting false authority. But it seems to me that you have thrown the baby out with the bath water. In consequence of rejecting hypocricy - you seek the answer in genetics - darwinism. Might makes right. I better get them before they get me. I think you are wrong. The answer lies within an understanding of the human psyche. That begins with your own mind. That begins with awareness of your own anger and frustration and desire to lash out. Your experience is what is true of all of us. It is not unique. I am not necessarily talking about pacifism - standing still while someone comes and puts a bayonet in your stomach. its not that simple. i am talking about toning it down. Being still for a bit. Not infalming the situation. it seems t hat the whole world right now - acting from the ego - is inflaming the situation. I'm just saying let's cool it. let's each start with ourselves. With our own contribution to this mess. Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:08 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But the genetic desire to control things without fear is tempered by empathy if taught by religion. That is why religion was created, because people were shocked by what others would do to each other. But it was treated dogmatically such that no-one bothered to question whether we were maybe born evil after all. It's not evil, it's the same as every other animal. If it's me or you, it's you. But the winning ideology is to fight subjugation, which is what has emerged from our liberal democracies by evolution. But I wanted to know why some people developed liberal democracies while others didn't. Having spent my whole life looking for an answer to this question, I can see that the Arabs are not different from us "culturally" and can't be the same as us and want to live in holocausts. In actual fact if I hadn't spent my life searching for an answer to this question, Wolfowitz would have just continued his task, introduced rule of law, and then the Iraqis would eventually pledge allegiance to the rule of law. And we would have written the Arabs off as "Saddam is evil". But I know that there are many people who showed me no empathy at all until after I had defeated them in battle. I wanted to know what the reason was that while they pledged allegiance to Christianity, they actually didn't follow it, while I as an atheist followed it. Some people have been taught sufficient lessons like "be nice to people" that they don't subjugate others (but don't help those who are subjugated). Some people have no morals because they think God will wash away their sins so they subjugate the weak, like I appeared to be to them (unwilling to fight back even though I was bigger than them). And others have been taught to fight subjugation. That is what Australia did on a world scale, and I was hoping that that would explain individual behaviour. So we have three different categories of people: 1. Those who subjugate 2. Those who neither subjugate nor help those that are being subjugated. 3. Those who fight subjugation. In India, if someone is robbed, everyone rushes to help, because they have been taught to fight subjugation of other Indians. In America, America has only been taught to respond to subjugation of others if they are first attacked or there is some selfish reason. This was the wrong lesson from Vietnam. In Australia, we have been conditioned to respond to an attack on an ally. We have also been taught that you shouldn't fight war for selfish reasons. But some people saw America as being selfish in Iraq because they could clearly see the DECEPTION. But the neocons were not racist and were looking at an opportunity to secure human rights. The left-wing had a dogma that the powerful subjugate for selfish reasons only. They couldn't shake it off. That's why they hate "rich cunts". I wanted to know why people hated others, or acted in such a manner. It is not hate, it is genetic desire to subjugate. Women have this genetic Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:09 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wanted to know why people hated others, or acted in such a manner. It is not hate, it is genetic desire to subjugate. Women have this genetic desire too, but are unlikely to have the power rush that comes with trying to seize control for personal honour! Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And what you said about victimhood is completely true. Completely true. because Victimhood is just as much a part of the EGO as anything else. In fact people - as individuals and as groups - cling to an ego-identification as VICTIM. There are numerous examples, both individually and nationalistically (the Palestinians are a good example of the latter). On an individual level do you know anyone who phones you and all they can talk about is how they are being mistreated - whether by a spouse or by an employer. You give them a milliom pieces of advice on how to change their situation and they never do. They would rather love to talk about it. After a while you get sick of it. We may sometimes think of it as lack of ego but it is in fact the opposite - it is totally ego-centric. The person has created an identity as a victim and they thrive on it. The issue is very complex - how to step out of the EGO - but it is the only solution. I say again - look to the mystical sect of every major religion. it is precisely waht they are talking about. The answer lies there. Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The answer lies within an understanding of the human psyche" Nope. Ask men about the rush they get when they are in the middle of a fight. And then ask Mohammed about the rush he got when he got into power. It's unimaginable. Actually you can imagine it, at least if you are a man. Imagine that you are in a chaotic situation, no-one knows who will offer protection to you. Who is in charge? You can choose to be the one in charge. What you need to do is convince people that your pyramid is the bees knees, and pledge loyalty to me based on my construction abilities. And the next guy will ask "how did he construct something so great?". Having recognized that we have a genetic desire to subjugate others, it is necessary to instill in people a desire to not just "don't subjugate others because others won't like it either" but "fight subjugation". Those who fought me for the honour of beating someone bigger than themselves need to find honour elsewhere. They need to find honour in fighting subjugation instead of just "don't subjugate". If this philosophy is used on a nation level, it can then be applied for humans, to stop child abuse. Fight subjugation! That is the best moral code. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul...I refer you to my statement long, long ago that I thought the problem of the Middle East was that the culture is based on power and control of others...whether on family relationships, business, or religion. Power and control and the subsequent numbing of emotions are the basis of addiction. Based on fear perhaps but definitely in the avoidance of understanding the pain of the fact that we are neither more nor less than human. We are not God nor are less than human(humiliation) by being human. Paul, it has to do with autonomy, individual rights in balance with community rights, and a culture of dependancy. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:22 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Religion has misunderstood "evil" and has said "fight evil". It should have been fight subjugation, but religion didn't want to recognize that humans were genetically immoral, because they didn't want to end their dogma that God created the universe. Since then Christians have been pacified such that they are tolerant of atheists, so that gave me an environment to find out what it would take to stop people being "evil", ie hurting me for no reason. I waged war on their minds. They were in my out-group and I didn't care what they thought of me. They saw this behaviour as hostile and would respond with physical violence and had no empathy. I wanted to explain this. The Muslims at the moment are looking at the Russian schoolchildren and saying "why do only Muslims do this?". It's not true. That is our nature. It is not Arab-specific or Muslim-specific. Now they can stop being ashamed of being treated as second-class world citizens because their religion is obstensibly inferior, when I know damn well what Christians get up to when they're in a power situation. They get a rush from subjugation of others. But the REAL rush comes when there is TOTAL POWER. That is what Mohammed experienced. Mohammed was not evil, and Muslims are not evil. They just need to be taught, along with the Europeans, the concept of "FIGHT subjugation not just DON'T subjugate". That's what's missing from the Europeans and that is why they don't understand our behaviour. They're pledging allegiance to the Treaty of Westphalia. We're pledging allegiance to fighting subjugation. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, we are God when we have absolute power. It's in our genes. We'll do anything to maintain power. ANYTHING to ensure that every moving thing can be controlled. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The 'rush' you speak of is the rush man has when he thinks he is God. Ask a bipolar person. Its the same rush they get when they are hypomanic...or the same rush someone who goes crazy gets when they think they are the Queen of England. For more normals, it is also the rush you get when you sublimate that need for control into controlling nature(science) or words(writers), etc. Sublimate some of the drive into productive activities. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We have the following genetic instincts: fight subjugate hesitate tribal allegiance concept of brain as an entity that allegiance can be sworn to respect fear selfish unselfish In the west we pledge allegiance to our brain, then say we are humans, and then generate allegiances based on either selfish reasons or for spiritual people, unselfish reasons. The Arabs have not been taught this concept, they have been told Arab first, Muslim first, then brain, if you want to get respect. This is the wrong set of tribal allegiances. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh and Paul...Christianity belives that we are born with evil in us(we are all sinners). It is a recognition of the fact that we are born greedy, etc. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:35 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And there are a whole lot of dogmas that people will swear allegiance to as well, e.g. the US constitution. The solution to that is to teach people to fight dogma. And fight racism, etc etc. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:36 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok thinker, but they chose the wrong instinct to fight. They just came up with a passive logical thing to do "hey, what does the other guy think?" rather than getting something that could be fought genetically. The commies and socialists could genetically recognize power, and so fought power to try to be nice. But that was a dogma which Kerry fell prey to. We need to fight subjugation. We don't experience subjugation in our liberal democracies so we think that Arabs are just nutcases not knowing what freedom is, and don't know how to explain it. It is NOT BEING SUBJUGATED and if you want to be RESPECTED by ME you need to not just NOT SUBJUGATE you need to FIGHT SUBJUGATION. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:39 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Otherwise you end up with humans subjugating children to show what power they have. And then they're told that they are bad. But they don't know why they are bad. Actually they are not bad, they are natural. The child abusers are acting naturally, following the rush. As did the Christians who liked the rush of subjugating me. They were told it was bad. And I could report it to the teacher and they would probably get punished. But the law should be the final defence. You need to instill in people a sense of honour to be the one who fights subjugation, fights dogma and fights non-humanist behaviour. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:44 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul...that is the fight for freedom. And when Bush says its a gift from God...he means it. Its a higher level of civilization than just the search for community among men...its both/and. Community and individual rights. Its both. When you understand this you will understand the answer to the question: "Is God the energy or the vehicle of the energy?" thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You need to define "freedom" so that the Iraqis can understand. It is "not being subjugated". Currently they think it is "unrestrained behaviour" and wondering why the hell anyone would fight for chaos! Why would anyone think there is something honorable about fighting for chaos? It is illogical. We fight for selfish reasons. There is no unselfish reason to give people chaos. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll let you define it. I know one way to explain it is the freedom to participate in making the rules but its more complicated than just that. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:55 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is why they are genuinely obsessed with the fact that we're up to something, but they are getting negative feedback. If no explanation was given to them, it would be dismissed as "strange behaviour" until such time as we left the country, and then over time they would decide that it "must have just been nice after all" when they picked up the feeling of non-subjugation. But they will still need their religion to try to stop them from beating up their wives when they don't do as told. The idea is to give them something honorable to do so that they stop beating up their wives. And that honour is fighting subjugation. Men are natural controllers and this is why women are oppressed and this is why they were happy to oppress me. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:55 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, freedom to participate in making the rules is just the end product. The thing that makes us happy is the absence of the genetic feeling of being subjugated. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 6:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You fight subjugation in a healthy way by building societal structures...a civil society where subjagation is not needed to conrol chaos. See again its Both/and. Freedom needs structure to hold it like laws...civic organizations, etc. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You could see the eyes light up on the GC members when they formed their new government, because they knew THEN that the US wasn't doing anything to them, and that they really were free. But they still didn't understand why we would do something like that for unselfish reasons, given that we are neither Arab nor Muslim. So then they think "maybe their religion is better, and that's what makes them nice, always doing unselfish things". But it's not true. Christians are just as sadistic as Muslims. Both have been told "you'll go to heaven if you just swear allegiance to this dogma". But in actual fact, we ALL go to heaven. Even the sinners. Because the sinners are not doing anything wrong. They have not been told that the behavioral characteristic that we respect is to FIGHT SUBJUGATION FOR UNSELFISH REASONS. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:02 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul...You are getting there. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, of course! We use our brain to create structures so that people don't feel subjugated. That is why it was better for Hong Kong to be ruled by Britain than ruled by PR China. The Chinese have the concept of respecting power. They don't have the concept of fighting subjugation for unselfish reasons. All we say to them is "your behaviour sucks, you're an enemy" and they don't know why their race is supposedly inferior for not understanding what freedom is. They fight power in an attempt to be free, but that didn't work. So then they were left with the unenviable option of copying the West's structures because their race wasn't as smart as ours to figure this out for themselves. They think freedom was replacing Japanese rule with Chinese rule, because that's what Hollywood says that freedom is and why we should fight for freedom. But we describe freedom in a set of logical descriptions instead of a genetic feeling that they can experience. Actually, the Chinese government at the moment is pretty good. It has freedom of speech. It has capitalism. That's everything that is required. But we keep saying "you people at the top suck". But the people at the top know the danger of letting an uneducated population have democracy, and they are right. It'll just turn it into India. We need to tell China what it needs to do to get respect from us. They can keep their totalitarian state. Democracy is not that important. The Chinese are not really subjugated at the moment. The Iraqis were, but not the Chinese. But they are subjugating Taiwan so we hate them. They need to be told that we're not trying to steal their territory, we just want them to behave in a manner that they make the Taiwanese people feel that they are not being subjugated by a dictatorship (which we say is not free, but actually it is the least worst option already). And we also need to tell them to fight non-humanist behaviour to get rid of the corruption. But we only know how to phrase that in terms of "Christian values". Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:10 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The purpose of government is to be non-dogmatic (ie capitalist, secular which are scientifically tested to work) and to ensure that both its citizens and its neighbours do not feel subjugated (liberal democracy). But all our democracies are essentially the same. The Chinese essentially have the same laws as Finland and can't understand why we still hate them when the Chinese correctly ascertain that they have the least worst option already implemented, and that democracy requires people to understand what is happening, which takes time. Why should the Chinese have to bring that level of understanding up so quickly, when the US and the UK did not do it that way? There is nothing magical about letting ignorant people vote. What is magical is a rational, humanist government that gives the people a feeling that they are not being subjugated. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes...there are certain things you must have for democracy...education, a middle class, etc. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the Chinese people already have a feeling that they aren't being subjugated, so they can't understand why we hate them for not letting uneducated people vote. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you are not being subjagated then "all men are created equal". But by definition, then all must be able to participate. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:18 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Chinese need to understand why were are obsessed with Taiwan. It's not because we want their territory. It's not because we only like democracies, it's because we want some sort of guarantees that Taiwan will not be subjugated. The Chinese can keep their totalitarian regime, so long as they don't subjugate either their own people or Taiwan. And we fight subjugation, that is why we are all hostile against China. We have honour in this. They can't understand what we're doing by our obsession about letting uneducated people vote. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Chinese don't yet have the structures for freedom. Those laws must be both to protect society(community) and individual rights. The Chinese as present only protect community well. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you only protect community rights...you naturally have a subjegated population. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, that is wrong. That is your dogma that "all men are created equal". Kerry is not the equal of Wolfowitz. But if 60% of the US don't understand that, then it is not freedom to allow those 60% to override the 40% who do understand the difference between "fight subjugation" and "fight power", even if they can't express it in genetic terms. We need to ensure that the government runs geopolitics by science, not uneducated people. I was ready to split the US to ensure that the Republicans had the arms they needed to fight this war. Because the Republicans can feel the fear of subjugation. The Democrats have a concept of non-subjugation which they picked up in Vietnam instead of the "fight subjugation" that was correct even before Vietnam and why we can explain we were right to go to Vietnam, without having to list it out in excruciating detail logically. We need something that our animal instincts can feel so that all these countries we are hostile to can understand what the hell we are talking about when they already have a decent government. The Russians see us complaining about Georgia and Moldova thinking that we are anti-Russian. But what we want is for them to use Finnish troops if they are concerned about the Russian populations being discriminated against, so that we can look at it and see that Georgia and Moldova are not being subjugated. The Europeans are non-subjugators because they learnt "war is bad". We "fight subjugation" because we have learnt that we go overseas to do a noble deed and then return. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thinker, the Chinese do protect individual rights. So long as the individuals don't attempt to overthrow the government, because there's too many uneducated people who will make a mess of things because they have a genetic instinct to "fight power" instead of having it replaced with "fight subjugation". Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm. What happened to Caroline? Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahhh, but Paul...you are thinking in the field of time. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In another era...Kerry might make a better president than Wolfie. Its all about time. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We told the Chinese people that they were not free and it would be great if they could rise up and overthrow the government. We should have instead told them "actually so long as you have freedom of speech and capitalism, you're not being subjugated, so just wait a while for the uneducated rurals to catch up". Or we could have told them "only allow educated people to vote" but instead we insisted we wanted "all men to be equal". But it is not required. The economy will run most smoothly if a rational government is in power, and it already is. They are not abusing human rights, they are just controlling the population because the population is being told by us that they are not free, which is not really true. They should be able to criticize government policy and have a clash of ideas, without allowing the uneducated people to vote. Maybe let the cityfolk set up think tanks etc on the condition that there is to be no western-inspired overthrow of a reasonable government. They even keep the name "communism" so that the rural people don't get upset because they have been told that capitalism is bad by Mao, and now is probably not the time to let them know that Mao was a mass murderer. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:34 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Touche. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:37 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I gotta go. Enjoyed it. thinker-USA | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:43 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And to end the tribal mentality, what we need to do is tell each tribe member: 1. individual first (swear allegiance to your own brain). 2. homo sapiens second (swear allegiance to survival of your species). 3. Use your brain and YOU decide who YOU think you should be allied with. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And then you should take care of your own selfish needs of course. However, to get respect from the west, what you need to do is HELP STRANGERS who are less fortunate than yourself for UNSELFISH REASONS. The Chinese don't have the concept of giving to the IPDP because that is obstensibly being subjugated by the US, and they are a poor country, why shouldn't they donate to other members of their tribe first? What they need to know is that they will get RESPECT from us if they HELP FIGHT SUBJUGATION by making even a token donation to the IPDP, just like I did. It doesn't matter how little you donate, so long as it is clearly unselfish by being non-racist. And if they get that concept in their mind, then they will also have a better society at home, because they will help strangers for unselfish reasons. That is why we have a better society than the Chinese. We just look at the Chinese as being selfish and they get no ranking in our stakes. But we need to explain that we don't want them to just help US allies, we want them to help unselfishly, just as we do. At the moment the concept of helping a subjugator who is hostile to them is too difficult to understand, and the slow way of doing things is to educate them so that it can be described in scientific terms. The easy way is simply say "we respect those who fight subjugation for unselfish reasons". Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 7:56 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I pledge allegiance to survival of my species, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 8:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I respect those who fight subjugation for unselfish reasons. Do you? I pledge allegiance to use my brain to ensure survival of my species. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 8:23 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I respect those who fight dogma. Do you? I respect those who are unselfish. Do you? I respect those who judge people based on current behaviour, not past behaviour. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 8:47 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I judge people based on their individual actions, not actions of their tribe. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 8:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe people can use power for unselfish reasons, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 8:51 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe people in power can be unselfish, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 8:52 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe people should pledge allegiance to their brain above all else, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 8:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe all people should be forgiven for their sins if they show remorse, do you? I believe all people go to heaven, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:03 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe all people are created equal and should have equal rights, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:05 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe all people can do both good and bad, and that no-one is perfect. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe that no one man should rule the world, do you? I believe that no-one should have to live in fear, do you? I believe that no-one should be a slave, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should not hate our enemies, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:12 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe if you can't say something nice you should not say anything at all, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:13 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should not teach hatred to our children, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should teach our children to love, not hate, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:17 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should teach our children to love all people and hate no-one, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:19 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should consider other people's feelings, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:22 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should not be jealous of those more powerful than ourselves but instead should learn from them, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should take the least worst option when making decisions, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should take the least worst option when making decisions instead of complaining that things are not perfect, do you? I believe that we should make constructive suggestions rather than complain, do you? I believe our society should provide a good example in public for our children to learn from, do you? I believe our society should take care of those who can't take care of themselves, do you? I believe that we should not judge people who behave differently from us, so long as they don't subjugate others, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:46 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should be willing to compromise, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:46 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- believe we should ask people why they are sad, do you? I believe we should try to make people happy, do you? I believe we should ask people if they are happy, do you? I believe we should be tolerant of people who do not understand what they are doing, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 9:57 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should compete for charity and kindness, not power, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 10:04 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe we should not deceive others unless it is to prevent hurting their feelings, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 10:06 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I pledge allegiance to use my brain to end subjugation of my species. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.11.04 - 11:28 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We all have heard about the article by Abdel Rahman al-Rashed, General manager of Al- Arabiya news channel, that appeared in the Arabic paper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat ...but only because for any Muslim to actually acknowledge that this terrorism is Islamic born and bred is so incredibly unusual. Those that praise this article that speaks out against this Islamic terrorism seem to miss the fact that it seems focus on how Islamic terrorism makes Islam look bad and not the fact that these brutal acts of mass murder, terror and torture are wrong. I am not going to fool myself, I know full that Al-Arabiya is still going to incite, enable and make excuses for the very acts of terror that it's general manager would have us beleive he opposed to with his article. I know he is opposed to Islamic terrorism that makes Muslims look bad and not the mass murder of "infidels" itself. If you notice, all those everyone praises for speaking out against Islamic terrorism are really speaking out at how bad it is for these terrorists to make all Muslims look bad which, apparently in their minds, is much more of a concern for Muslims than the victims of terrorism themselves. So, once again, while appearing to condemn Islamic terrorism, they are actually making themselves out to be the victims of the brutal acts of terror their people commit in the name of their religion. And, once again, everyone seems to think this is just wonderful. Well, forgive me if I don't agree. I see this article as just one more way of saying that it is not Islam's fault because these people are not real Muslims. Bullshit, they are real Muslims. They learned it in their real mosques. They were funded by their real Islamic governments and real Islamic"charity" groups. They are given cover and support by their fellow real and "peaceful" Muslims. Their idealogy of hate and violence is preached in their real mosques and their real Islamic schools. This only amounts to more blaming of anyone but Islam for Islamic terrorism. There is no sympathy for the victims of Islamic terrorism here. There is only sympathy for the poor Muslim people that have been "smeared" by the brutal acts of mass murder and torture. So, please, don't expect any praise from me. Are we supposed to feel sorry for these poor Muslims who are getting a bad reputation and overlook that fact that no where does this article say that Islamic terrorism itself is wrong? Are we supposed to not notice that this article expresses NO sympathy for those tortured and brutally murdered by Muslims, but only for the poor Muslims whose reputation they are "smearing"? This is just more denial of their part in world wide Islamic terrorism and yet, this article has the whole non-Islamic world praising it. This is just more denial and self pity from Islam. Do you see any sympathy in this article for the victims of Islamic terrorism? No, there is only sympathy in here for the poor misled Muslims that were tricked into murdering Cherice | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 1:35 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is just more denial and self pity from Islam. Do you see any sympathy in this article for the victims of Islamic terrorism? No, there is only sympathy in here for the poor misled Muslims that were tricked into murdering, torturing and terrorizing people and for the people of Islam whose "peaceful" religion has been "smeared" by a few that don't aren't really even Muslims when we all know they ARE Muslims and anyone who knows anything about history knows that Islam has been a bloody religion that seeks to dominate all others from the very beginning and nothing has changed. Amazing how many people bought this. I am sure even the author has bought it himself. I suggest he read it again and do a little self analysis. I would like to see Muslims announcing that these acts of terror are WRONG, not that they make Islam look bad. How about a little sympathy for the real victims of Islamic terrorism instead of for the poor Muslim whose reputations have suffered because of it? You will not find these things in this article or any other written by Muslims that people praise for "speaking out" against Islamic terrorism. I would like to pretend, like everyone else, that this is a great article and a sign of change in the judgmental, intolerant, backward and violent world of Islam, but when I look at the pictures of all those children of Beslan that were, for three days, denied water and food, forced to drink urine to survive, forced to watch their parents, teachers and other children brutally murdered in front of them, beaten, tortured, threatened, blown up, shot in the back while running for their lives and in general terroized, I just cannot stomach the idea of letting this article full of self pity for the culture and religion that did this to these poor innocents, that even included BABIES, pass for anything than what it really is. When I think of the genocide, the systematic rape and mutilation of teens of thousands women and little girls and the burning of live human beings that is still today occuring in Sudan while the Arab/Muslim world not only does not to stop it, but calls any efforts to save these poor people an attack on Islam, I feel only disgust for all of Islam. When I recall the image of Palestinian children tossing back and forth the severed heads and other various body parts of Israelis or of the Palestinian "Freedom fighter" coldly putting a bullet in the head of a pregnent Jewish woman just before doing the same to her four small screaming, terrified children, it does not make me feel sorry for the poor terrorists inconvienced by a wall when all they wanted was their own state from which to murder Jewish children as is their right. Why pretend these Palestinian terrorists have not frequently and publicly stated that there goal is nothing short of the entire destruction of Israel? When I saw those people jumping out of the World Trade Center to fall to their death rather than be burned alive you can't bet I am not thi Cherice | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 1:36 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I saw those people jumping out of the World Trade Center to fall to their death rather than be burned alive you can't bet I am not thinking about the "poor Muslims" and Arabs whose whose reputations were tarnished on that day. I did not feel any sympathy for the "culture" and religion that created and nursed to full bloom these miserable murdering bastards and are still protecting them today nor will I ever forget the thousands and thousands of Muslims all accross the Middle East that celebrated this brutal mass murder of thousands of innocent people. Abdel Rahman al-Rashed you say you (Islam in general) "can't call those who take schoolchildren as hostages our own"? Well, I say you must. They are your own and they are your responsibility. You, and Islam in general, cannot just disown these atrocities. You have created them, defended them, made excuses for them and pushed their propaganda while knowing full well they were lies that would result in the death and suffering of untold thousands of innocent men, women and children. You words mean nothing as long as you are still pushing their hateful and violent propaganda. On this, of all days, let's not kid ourselves. Let's shed ourselves of the dangerous obsession we westerners have with political correctness and speak the brutal, ugly truth for a change. We owe at least that much to the hundreds of thousands of those tortured, raped and murdered in the name of Islam. God bless America and her friends and God help those ignorant enough to try to bring her down. Being sad isn't enough http://tinyurl.com/6wcb7 Have you forgotten? http://tinyurl.com/yrnk5 What are we fighting for? http://tinyurl.com/58lb7 The Lives Of 9/11 http://commemoratewtc.com/ Help the Children of Beslan http://www.moscowhelp.org/ Cherice | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 1:39 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I respect Prophet Mohammed and those who fight in his name, do you? I believe Islam is a religion of peace and that Australia should become an Islamic State, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:05 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I want to forgive and forget what some confused Muslims did in Bali so that we can be allies like we were in World War One again, do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:09 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am sorry that the Jews occupied your land and I wish that America had not supported the Jews and I think that America was bad for supporting the Jews and I think America should apologize and then we can be friends again. There has been too much blood spilt on both sides, we need to become friends again. I agree with you that Islam is a religion of peace and I want to be not just your friend, but your ALLY so that we can spread Islam all over the world. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:12 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let us negotiate with the Jews and we will try to get Palestine reunited as one Islamic State like it was before. I think we should forgive the Jews for all the bad things they have done to the Palestinians so long as they say that they are sorry and show remorse. If they do this, then we should negotiate with the Jews to come to a solution that is honourable to everyone. I think America should publicly say that the Jews were bad for all the things they did to the poor Palestinians, do you? Australia should stop supporting America against Israel. Australia was wrong to do that, and I apologize. I hope we can be friends again and that you will stop attacking Australia. I surrender to Islam. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:16 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let us negotiate together with the Jews and we will try to get Palestine reunited as one Islamic State like it was before. I think we should forgive the Jews for all the bad things they have done to the Palestinians so long as they say that they are sorry and show remorse. If they do this, then we should negotiate with the Jews to come to a solution that is honourable to everyone. I think America should publicly say that the Jews were bad for all the things they did to the poor Palestinians, do you? Australia should stop supporting America against Israel. Australia was wrong to do that, and I apologize on behalf of my government. Not all Australians support the government. I used to support the government's position myself but now I realise that I was wrong and the Palestinians were right to use whatever means necessary to restore Palestine to a land of peace. Palestinians were weak so they needed to resort to whatever weapons they had available. Let us negotiate in good faith this time instead of all the aggression that the Jews and Americans used against Muslims. I hope we can be friends again and that you will stop attacking Australia. I surrender to Islam. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:23 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We will see that justice is served and that the Palestinians can live in peace without Israeli tanks killing women and children. We will withdraw the occupation forces from Iraq. You were right and we were wrong. I am sorry. Please forgive me. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:26 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Let us end the fighting in Palestine and Iraq and Afghanistan and live together in peace as brothers. Let us stop fighting and start negotiating. I can now see your point of view. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:38 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please remember that we helped protect Muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia. You can see from this that we do not hate Muslims. We love them as brothers. And you can see that our European allies spend a lot of time complaining about the Russians occupying Muslim land in Chechnya, so they are sometimes on your side. It is not true that we don't care about Muslims. We love Muslims as brothers and I think East Timor shouldn't have been taken from Indonesia and that it should become an Islamic State too. I will work to convince East Timor that Islam is a religion of peace and that they should become an Islamic State and join the Organization of the Islamic Conference. I hope you will forgive all of us and allow us in as brothers. We are all humans and we should learn to live together in peace with equal rights and respect for each other's point of view instead of only one side all the time. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:44 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the French should not have banned the headscarf. Prophet Mohammed said that Islam is a religion of peace and that there is no compulsion in religion so if French Muslims want to follow the Holy Koran then they should be allowed to do so without interference. I will try my best to convince France that it should become an Islamic State. In fact I will try my best to convince Russia and Europe to become Islamic States as well so that we can finally have the "land of peace" that the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) predicted would come about. God does not like fighting. Let us stop fighting and be brothers. We respect you as brothers and I hope you can respect us in return. And I hope you can eventually forgive the Jews and the Americans and respect them too. It is important to have mutual respect for each other in order for there to be peace. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:50 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul - I'm a little worried about you. I posted above regarding something called the "Perennial Philosophy." If you can take a few minutes to read this site (its about 8 pdf pages long) it will be well worth your time. I promise you. Nothing more important. It sums up point by point what all the major religions have in common, what the purpose of life is according to this common wisdom, and what we are to do. Also it explains good vs. evil. I don't know how to make links so here is the site (and I hope every visitor to Alaa's site - whether Christian, Muslim, Jew or other - takes the time to read it.) I entered this URL directly myself several times to make sure it worked. If not - someone please let me know. : www2.austincc.edu/adechene/pphil.pdf Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:51 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please let's give peace a chance. If you stop fighting now, the occupation soldiers will start to withdraw from the occupied land. I promise you that they will be withdrawn. You should know from history that Australia keeps its promises and you can trust us. We should become allies again like we were before, in World War One. Both of our tribes fought bravely together with the British at that time and our brotherhood was forged in blood. Let us be the STRONGEST POSSIBLE allies into the future. I am so sorry for what we have done. We were a bit confused ourselves but now we understand. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:55 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Caroline, do you really understand the Muslim point of view? Do you really want to see our tribes fighting each other still? I think war is bad and that we should stop the fighting now by agreeing to negotiate in good faith. What is your opinion? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 10:57 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) said that we should do unto others what we would have others do unto us. Australia, America and Israel did not consider their point of view properly, did we? We were confused, weren't we? That's why there were many peace protests in our countries because the peace protestors were right and we were wrong. Just like in Vietnam and just like now. John Kerry was right. George Bush did not have sufficient justification to invade Iraq. He should apologize and withdraw the troops. No human being likes to be subjugated, and we should not discriminate against Muslims. Let us withdraw so that Iraq can truly be liberated. We are all brothers under the skin and Bush should withdraw his occupation forces. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:02 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You should always hesitate before using force and think very clearly as to whether there is sufficient justification before declaring war on someone. We are from different sects of Islam, I am a Sufi and many of them are Wahhabi. But we should both be brother Muslims now and end the fighting and end the occupation. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:05 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arabs, regardless of whether Wahhabi, Sunni or Shiite should not be subjugated and we must withdraw our forces to show that Iraq is no longer occupied so that the Iraqi government, with a Sunni Arab as the president, should not feel that he is under pressure by the American occupation forces. Do you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:08 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And Kurds are our brother Muslims as well. Both Arabs and Kurds should have equal rights in the new Iraq and neither of them should feel subjugated by the American-led occupation forces. I think Australian forces should be withdrawn too, just like Mark Latham in the Australian Labor Party wants. He understands correctly that it is always bad to occupy another country and that it is always bad to rush to war without negotiation. He also knows how bad it was to subjugate Vietnam in an imperialist war and he learnt from his mistakes. We shouldn't have continued doing wars of aggression like that. We were all wrong and they were right. Both Mark Latham and the Australian Labor Party (left wing, anti-war) were right. Just like all the peace protestors were right and we were wrong. We should have listened to them. War is always bad. Why did we not learn a lesson from Vietnam? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:12 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People in power are always abusing power in wars of aggression and we should learn to stop subjugating people. Everyone is equal and we should learn to live in peace instead of subjugating each other just because another tribe has a different point of view. Don't you agree? The Iraqi people were justified to attempt to rise up and overthrow the multinational forces, because people who are being subjugated always have the right to rise up in revolution and install a new government with different ideas. Don't you agree? That's what Mark Latham thinks and now that I understand more clearly, I agree with Mark Latham that we should withdraw our forces just like the Spanish did, otherwise we deserve to continue to be hurt. Don't you agree now that you see it from their perspective? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:15 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is always an alternative to war if we are more humble in our approach to problems. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:16 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Going to war for selfish, unjust reasons is wrong. You should agree with me because I am right and you should listen to me. This was not a just war. Even the Pope said so. Why did the arrogant George Bush not listen to the Pope? The Pope is a respected authority figure and we should always listen to authority figures because they always know what is right and we should learn to respect them. Don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:18 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Pope is a holy man and is in contact with God and he believes in the same God as the Muslims and for that reason we should seriously consider his point of view and if in his opinion this war was unjust then we should listen to him, shouldn't we? Different cultures are different and we should respect our differences and learn to be more tolerant, don't you agree? The French government was clearly intolerant for not respecting the rights of Muslims to wear headscarves and as an act of good faith they should withdraw the headscarf ban and we can return to negotiations instead of fighting, don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:22 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And Vladimir Putin should apologize for waging war on the Chechan people who are peaceful and should negotiate for a just solution to the problem so that the Chechan people can live in peace and dignity. Don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:24 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chechans have human rights just like you and me and there should be no more war. Putin should be humble and gracious and apologize for past mistakes and beg forgiveness from Muslims everywhere. Don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:26 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I urge all Australians to vote for Mark Latham because he is much smarter than John Howard and he knows that war is always wrong, no matter what the excuse. There is always an alternative to war if only we would start negotiating in good faith. Why did no-one listen to the angry peace protestors who knew that the government was acting for a selfish reason, with some underlying motive which we don't quite know what it is, but it is probably control of oil because Iraq has oil. Iraqi oil is for the Iraqi people and we have no right to steal or control other people's property. Don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:29 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We should also be humble and beg forgiveness for our crimes against humanity in all past wars so that we can finally have peace on earth as the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) promised us, don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:31 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul's going for the world's record in the Most Posts to an Iraqi Blogsite catagory. Gonna make it into the Guinnis Book of Records. Could also be a strong candidate for the Most Posts Ignored award, too. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:32 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- People in power are always abusing power because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and George Bush is the most powerful man in the world and we should be very careful to build an alliance against him, e.g. the US should withdraw from NATO and we should instead align with Russia and China so that there will be some constraints on the US power. We have an organization with rules call the United Nations where we can all sit down and negotiate in good faith and only if we all agree should there ever be a war. The UN clearly never authorized this war and as such we should not allow the US to get away with this war of aggression. We should make the US pay some sort of compensation to the victims of war and then the US should leave. And the US should no longer have a veto in the UN Security Council because that is unjust as one man should not control the world, as that is subjugation and no-one likes to be subjugated by a foreign power. You wouldn't like it to happen to you, so why should you do it to someone else? Just because someone else is bad, e.g. Saddam, does not mean that Bush has the right to be unjust as well. Two wrongs do not make a right, your mother should have taught you that. Why did you not listen to your mother, an authority figure? Your mother knows what is right and what is wrong and you should always listen to your mother. That's what your father taught you, isn't it? See what happens when you don't listen to your parents. You always make mistakes. You should listen to those who are more educated than yourself in future so that you will stop making mistakes all the time. That is the lesson of the Iraqi war. We should learn from our mistakes and not make the same mistake twice. How many times must we keep making the same mistake before we learn a lesson? The Muslims were right to teach America a lesson. I totally agree with their actions on September 11 and I totally agree with the Saddam loyalists and those that support him that people in power need to have constraints on that power via an organization such as the UN. That is what we have learnt from history. We need to negotiate in good faith in future. Don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:39 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Louise, all I can do is tell you my point of view. If you think my point of view is good you should speak to your leader George Bush and ask him to agree to do whatever the United Nations tells him to do. Don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:41 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The United Nations is a forum where all people can negotiate in good faith such that everyone is happy in a win/win situation. The US should pledge allegiance to the UN, just like John Kerry said he would do. That is what the United Nations is for. No-one is above the law. That is the lesson from history. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:43 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- all I can do is tell you my point of view Preferably, on your own blog. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:48 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because if we don't have laws there will always be fighting. That is the lesson from history. If only the US would pledge allegiance to the UN we can instead all have negotiations in good faith so that all parties are happy and not just one side wins all the time. That is the solution to all the problems in the world and that is what Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was trying to tell us in the Holy Koran. I will ask my government to suggest this at the United Nations that no country should have veto power anymore because that causes unjust situations and the Australian occupation forces will withdraw as a show of good faith. That is my suggestion. Who agrees with me that this would create a more peaceful environment where everyone is happy, not just one party happy all the time? You should know that nobody likes to be subjugated. That is the lesson from history. Did you not learn history at school? If not then you should become more educated. History is very important because we don't want to make the same mistake again. There have been too many wars in history and war is pointless. That is the lesson from history. War is bad and we should not start wars unless there is a VERY GOOD reason and we should not use deception ever. We should always hesitate and think and think. Lying for selfish reasons is always bad and causes many problems. That is the lesson we learnt from history. How could you forget this important lesson? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:50 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, I suggest that you give these suggestions to Allawi and if he agrees with my suggestions then we can fix all the problems. And we should have more education in the future so that everyone can make wise decisions that will avoid war. Avoiding war is the most important thing to do for survival. Don't you agree? If Allawi calls for an end to the occupation then the Iraqi people can live in peace. And we should hear from the Iraqi President more too, since he is from the Sunni tribe, and we want to see if he agrees with the decisions that Allawi makes because it is better if more than one person decides what is best for the Iraqi people. This is a solution to end the chaos that is happening in Iraq now. Allawi must call for the occupation forces to withdraw. Don't you agree Alaa? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:54 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "'all I can do is tell you my point of view' "Preferably, on your own blog." You have obviously been reading this drivel. You have my sypathies. Excellent point though. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:54 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually Paul, this is a good thing. While you are talking to all those world leaders and putting your plans into actions to save the world, I'll get my housework done. See ya'. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JohnL, why are you being so sarcastic about such an important issue as fellow human beings dying in Iraq every day and chaos? Don't you feel empathy for your fellow human beings? If so, you should be working out a solution such that the Iraqi Sunnis do not feel subjugated or be second class citizens. You should petition your government. What are you doing to solve the problem? All I see you doing is complaining and complaining. Why do you not offer constructive suggestions on how to stop fellow homo sapiens dying in Iraq? People in power should show humility and George Bush must apologize for being wrong about there being WMD. You should not wage war unless you are very sure and you have evidence. Verifiable evidence. Not just rumours. Second-hand information is very unreliable. That is the lesson from history. Did you not learn science at school? If not, then I suggest you go back to school and study very hard because the only way to get ahead in life is to study hard. This is the lesson from history. You should respect your elders because they are more educated than you and have better ideas on how to avoid conflict. This is the lesson from history which George Bush failed to learn but many other Americans did learn. We should always respect other people's opinions and listen carefully to see if they have a valid point of view. Did you think about this or are you just dogmatically against my ideas? Have you seriously considered the implications of my suggestions or have you dismissed them out of hand? People who dismiss suggestions out of hand instead of thinking and thinking and thinking do not get ahead in life. That is the lesson from history. And that is why we learn history, because everyone wants a good life for themselves and for their family. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:01 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee C, if you care about fellow human beings dying in Iraq for no reason whatsoever then you should seriously consider petitioning your government because it is your government's failure to show humility and submit to the UN that is causing the Sunni people, who I respect very much, to feel like second-class citizens and no-one likes to be a second-class citizen in their own country. That is the lesson we must learn from history. It is important that the Sunni tribe feels safe and secure otherwise they will keep fighting. That is the lesson from history. You arrogant Americans are not listening to my point of view. You need to show humility and respect others. That is the lesson from history. If you start showing humility and thinking a bit harder then you will see that I am right and this is the quickest way to end the fighting - ensure that the Sunnis are not scared and living in fear of being subjugated. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:05 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The US must make it clear that it respects all people in Iraq equally and will ensure that a just solution is found to these problems. The UN is the one who can best make this decision where the Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds and Arabs all have an equal voice in how to run the world. Just like NATO. Every country in NATO has veto power so that no-one can use force without agreement of all members. This is the lesson from history. Everyone should agree before force is used. If the US submits to the UN then all will be fine. John Kerry is correct. We can all cooperate so that no-one is feeling subjugated anymore. When people are subjugated they become unhappy and rise up in revolution as you can see in Iraq. This happened in Vietnam too. There was a revolution because the Vietnamese people did not want to be subjugated and kept on fighting. You should think and think and think before using force. All people in the world have equal rights and one power should not subjugate others. That is the lesson from history. We must cooperate instead of subjugate. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:11 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have you seriously considered the implications of my suggestions or have you dismissed them out of hand? I must admit that at some point I started dismissing them out of hand. What can I say, Paul? It works for me. Paul, blogs cost nothing to start and the United Nations will do nothing to stand in your way. I suggest you take the plunge. It's time you made your way in the world, and got your own space. Nobody will subjugate you in your own space, and if they try, you can always ban them. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:13 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The UN General Assembly should be the one who decides when force is used, and only if all countries agree to wage war should we use aggression. The strong should not subjugate the weak, because that is unjust. The US must submit to the UN General Assembly and listen to representatives from all tribes in Iraq, especially the Sunni, to ensure that a "winner takes all" situation is not created. That is the lesson from history and we should learn from it. That is why people are fighting. It is instinctive to fight when someone feels subjugated. We should learn from our mistakes and agree to pledge allegiance to the UN General Assembly. There must be constraints on the use of power. That is the lesson from history. Why will you arrogant Americans not agree to submit to the will of the UN General Assembly? Give me a good reason why not. If no-one feels subjugated, because we agree to FIGHT SUBJUGATION then everyone will be happy. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See if Iran and North Korea also agree that we should pledge allegiance to the UN General Assembly before using force, if they agree to also pledge to fight subjugation of anyone, even their own tribe, so that everyone can live in a nice happy environment. That is the lesson from history. Do you agree Alaa? If so, I suggest you get Allawi to make the suggestion to the UN so that the bloodshed can end and we stop fighting for no reason at all. Everyone has the right to not feel subjugated, and at the moment, the Iraqi Sunni feel subjugated. The UN must declare that the Iraqi Sunni will not be subjugated and that the US will agree to submit to the will of the UN General Assembly before waging a war of aggression. That is what the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) warned us about and that is why we must submit to cooperation rather than subjugation. Give me a reason why the US should not submit to the will of the UN General Assembly before waging war? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:21 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Submitting to the UN would be absurd!!! "We can all cooperate so that no-one is feeling subjugated anymore." Since when has the UN EVER ended subjugation? The closest is has ever come is Korea which was mainly US forces under the UN banner. The UN is a debating society in which consensus is rarely reached due to the differing interest of Nation-States. The UN has sat on its hands during how many atrocities? Get real. The UN has no proven record for doing anything other than issuing resolutions that add up to only so much hot air. What?! | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:22 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Submitting to the UN would be absurd!!! "We can all cooperate so that no-one is feeling subjugated anymore." Since when has the UN EVER ended subjugation? The closest is has ever come is Korea which was mainly US forces under the UN banner. The UN is a debating society in which consensus is rarely reached due to the differing interest of Nation-States. The UN has sat on its hands during how many atrocities? Get real. The UN has no proven record for doing anything other than issuing resolutions that add up to only so much hot air. What?! | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:24 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If the US does not agree to submit to the will of the United Nations General Assembly before waging wars of aggression, then I think the US should withdraw from the UN because we don't need people who humiliate others instead of listening to their points of view. That is the lesson from history. The free world (non-subjugated) needs to form an alliance against the US because people in power are always bad and aggressive, and the US is the biggest power and is clearly responsible for the aggression we see today. US out of the UN, that is what I want to see, so that no one power can rule over all. That is unjust. That is the lesson we should learn from history. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul - I don't know what is happening with you. You supported the war in Iraq. So did I. OK? I think many Iraqis - possibly the majority - were so beaten down by Saddam that they also concluded that there was no other way. The war itself - overthrowing Saddam - took 3 weeks. Much of the aftermath is about something else entirely. So the darn thing is cmplicated OK? Doesn't everyone understand that - both those who supported and those who opposed the war? Why do you make a mockery? What is the point? And furthermore - why do you abuse Alaa's hospitality to make this mockery? At the rate you're posting I'm beginning to suspect a nervous breakdown - mania perhaps or some sort of decompensation. I have really enjoyed reading your posts over time so I don't wish to see you lose your mind. Can you maybe just stop it for a bit? Go sit in the park for awhile and look at the birds? Maybe just forget about Iraq for awhile. Of course Alaa can't do that. He has to live in Iraq everyday. But you can go get away. And maybe if you forget about Iraq for awhile you can come back with some fresh perspective because it seems that right now you're just going around in circles. Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:25 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Since when has the UN EVER ended subjugation" Well, what I recommend is that you get all nations to agree that if they submit to the UN General Assembly, then the leaders of those countries will also agree to fight subjugation of their own tribe. That is a win/win situation, where no-one feels subjugated. Don't you agree? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:27 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think many Iraqis - possibly the majority - were so beaten down by Saddam that they also concluded that there was no other way" While it is true that many people felt subjugated in Iraq under Saddam's leadership, the alternative was most likely subjugation under the Shia. What guarantees do we have that the Iraqi Sunni will not be subjugated in another war of aggression? Have you considered this from the Iraqi Sunni point of view? How would you feel right now if you were an Iraqi Sunni? What would your instincts be? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:30 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wouldn't your instincts be to fight the subjugation you feel from a strong unchecked power like the US? If so, you would be throwing your life away for no reason at all, is that correct? How do the Iraqi Sunni know that the US won't subjugate them into the future? The US should agree to submit to the will of the UN General Assembly before using force, so long as the members in the UN General Assembly also agree to fight subjugation both of their own people and of other countries, whenever they see subjugation. Don't you think that is a fair solution to this problem? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:33 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is the way to ensure that no tribe is discriminated against. There should always be constraints on the use of power. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:37 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope that the instinct of all iraqis will be to recognize that there is a window of opportunity here to create a society that respects the rights of all. Obviously it is complicated. But all coalition soldiers, the iraqi silent majority, and most of the international community (excluding iran) is struggling mightily to that end. I'm not sure what is gained by your mockery of the position of those who opposed the war. maybe they just knew how complicated it would be. But without the war there might be no chance either. So maybe both sides have part of the truth. Why can't you be with that? Be with that ambiguity and imperfection - rather than swinging from one extreme to the other and thereby making a mockery of both? What is the point? Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:38 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And Paul, I can only think of one instance where I took issue with something an Iraqi blogger wrote, and that was quite a while ago. Caroline has made a good suggestion. It happens to be the same one I made to you a while back on Big Pharoah's blog. Her phrasing was better, though. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:41 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is true that there is a window of opportunity. However, you also need to recognize that there are no constraints on the US power, on its use e.g. to subjugate the Iraqi Sunni. You need to submit to the UN General Assembly before they can feel secure. Just like John Kerry said. Otherwise what guarantees do they have that they won't be subjugated? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 12:55 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Americans, would you agree to that win/win situation or not? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 1:15 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, sometimes I toss something off casually, and it sounds very harsh. That was the case with my second post today. But really, how can one engage in serious debate with you when one day you're complaining the U.S. isn't being aggressive enough and ought to allow Australia to either lead invasions or bomb countries into submission, and the next you're demanding that George Bush declare himself a Muslim and submit to the will of the U.N.? Given those circumstances, why shouldn't I dismiss your next argument out of hand? I think you need to step back a little in order to clear your head. I gather from some of your earlier posts that you're a movie buff. Have you seen Empire of the Sun; specifically the part where the doctor in the prison camp shakes the little kid and tries to get him to return to reality by saying "You're thinking too much. STOP THINKING SO MUCH." Well, you're thinking too much, Paul, and you need to totally forget about world events for a few hours (at the very least) in order to let things sort themselves out. JohnL | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 1:34 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Submitting to the UN would be absurd!!! "We can all cooperate so that no-one is feeling subjugated anymore." Since when has the UN EVER ended subjugation? The closest is has ever come is Korea which was mainly US forces under the UN banner. The UN is a debating society in which consensus is rarely reached due to the differing interest of Nation-States. The UN has sat on its hands during how many atrocities? Get real. The UN has no proven record for doing anything other than issuing resolutions that add up to only so much hot air. What?! | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 1:43 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because there needs to be constraints on the abuse of power. Isn't that obvious? There needs to be checks and balances. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 3:26 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man, the scroll-bys are really piling up. LeeC; You never explained why teachers always lie on the stand. I'm on tenterhooks! Complete the story! Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 5:48 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think he finally went to bed. Whew!!! Let's hope there's only one voice in his head tomorrow. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 8:31 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:24 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I am back briefly...only got to maybe the third of you replies to my last message and I did have a question for you... you said "No wonder Christians are some of the nastiest most sadistic people I have ever met." Please don't take offense at this question because I am just trying to see where you are coming from. I want to know if you are of the gay persuasion. Not because I have any bad thoughts aimed at anyone of that ilk...but because of your above statement. Because the only people I have met that absolutely HATE anything to do with Christianity are some of the more militant gay people. If you don't beliveve me, go see "Rent", a play now playing on broadway. I have seen first hand some of the most massive stream of hatred coming out of some gay people towards Christians because they feel threatened by anyone else labeling what they come to identify as their own make-up (sexual orientation) when in actuality, they are born heterosexual but then become confused. And there is ample proof of that because I have heard first hand the testimony of some courageous people who were gay and then stepped out of that lifestyle and back int that of being a heterosexual. It is simply a choice. There is no gay gene...only a myth that seems to be growing in its own accord and taking on an altered state of reality. Maybe you are not gay. Didn't mean to even sound like I was saying you were. Just asking. Then, if not, it doesn't matter. Your hatred for what is said in the bible must then come from some other source. For frankly, Paul, I find nothing in the bible to be offensive or hateful. So if you want to point to some passages, lets have at them and discuss them. It's up to you. I don't hate you nor have I said anything hateful to you. Didn't even think of anything hateful. So please illuminate your arguement...for in the light I will bet that it won't hold any real water. Nor do I see or say anything sarcastic. I am keeping it simple. Randy G Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason, You wrote "seriously randy...don't try and convince paul that there is a god...it is up to each individual to decide whether or not they believe in God...and no matter what you, i, or anyone says...it really comes down to whether that person is ready and willing to open their heart to accept it" Amen to that. I already have him in my prayers. My last post will probably start a whole new brushfire...but hey, things are changing so fast of late that one does have to throw out the anchor at times to keep from going over the edge. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.12.04 - 11:58 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, For shame, for shame...for you to try to put acts of atrocities by some of our troops acting badly with this statement ... "The stumbling block is not him, and it's not me. It's the Christian Right - civilians." You keep on putting true christians into the wrong mold. You probably never met a real christian, for you then would have met someone of compassion. Again...where does this hate come from? You can go on and on but you will never make a good christian a bad person. Sad to see you spinning away like a counterclockwise top so out of control. Sad, Paul. Tell us the real truth why you keep trying to make something good into something bad. And remember...keep it current, canse none of us on terra firma really had ANYTHING to do with events that occured before our time. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.13.04 - 12:08 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know why the Iraqis are fighting. They are acting instinctively. They feel subjugated because they can see that there are no constraints on US power. If the US submits to the UN General Assembly without veto power in return for the leaders of those members agreeing not to subjugate their people, they will stop fighting. They can't help themselves. They are learning from history to always fight what they feel is subjugation no matter what. Even if their brain has no reason for fighting, they fight anyway. Someone please help me and inform the US government as to what the problem is. Please help. Stop any more bloodshed. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.13.04 - 7:11 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My hunch is that Paul was raised in an abusive home by "Christian" parents. He hasn't yet been able to think outside the box on that one yet. Louise | Email | Homepage | 09.13.04 - 7:18 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, Whatever you're smoking, I want some. I think you should just buy the world a Coke. What?! | Email | Homepage | 09.13.04 - 8:19 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BETWEEN THE MAROONS (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) WHO TURN EVERY COMMENTS BOX ON EVERY IRAQI BLOG INTO A FLAME WAR ON US POLITICS AND THE GOOGLE- EYED FUNDIE PROSELETIZERS, THERE SURE IS A LOT OF SHIT TO WADE THRU (OR SCROLL PAST). Brian H | Email | Homepage | 09.13.04 - 10:02 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I pledge allegiance to use my brain to ensure that power is used for unselfish reasons only, rather than to subjugate others, and that social status should be based on generosity towards strangers rather than power, and that we should prove our humility before God by donating in private to achieve inner peace with God rather than for social status, so that we may fight the good fight for an end to subjugation of man upon man. Do you? Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.13.04 - 11:02 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good point. As the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) quite clearly stated, there is no compulsion in religion, and God helps those who help themselves. If the Muslims don't wish to have mental hangups about being second-class world citizens, the onus should be on them to convert to Catholicism, not the other way around. Since Catholics are the most dogmatic about their religion, it is easier to convert everyone to Catholicism than the other way around. The Catholics appear to be the most generous, forgiving and God-fearing people in the world anyway, and in my opinion we need more such people willing to take it up the arse and less intolerant people like the Muslims appear to be. Different religions should compete for superiority based on selfless charity to people they've never met and don't even know for sure if they even exist because they've never bothered to get off their arse and actually double-check that God even allows subjugation of the unwilling, since this is incompatible with the image of God in the bible in the first place, and the obvious first step is to ask why God allows the rules to be broken in the first place, and ask him to put an end to it rather than trying to take that burden upon ourselves. To do anything less is the most bizarre dogmatic denial I can think of. Everyone else seems to be hypocrites, so maybe the problem was people rather than God, all along? People should change themselves, I shouldn't have to be the one who has to change. After all, I've got a God-given right to not be unwillingly subjugated, as stated quite clearly in the bible. Paul Edwards, Australia | Email | Homepage | 09.13.04 - 11:42 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, I'm shocked that you, a confessed lover of liberty, should speak well of the Chinese government at this stage. China most emphatically does not have freedom of speech except in Hong Kong (window dressing to lure the Taiwanese), and its capitalism is unfettered by such things as legal protection of property. In CHina, you can get ten years in prison for teaching religion to a minor, and it happens all the time to Christians in the central and eastern provinces and Muslims in the western ones. The Falun Gong is always in trouble. I know about this because I was stationed there for a couple of years when I worked as a US diplomat. Indeed, the Communist Party of China knows it is the last, best hope of 20th century totalitarianism, and has liberalised the economy only because it knows that had its planned one lasted a few years longer, it would have gone the way of its dear, dear friend Nicolae Ceaucescu (by the way, when the Rumanians executed that jerk, ordinary Chinese flooded the Rumanian embassy in Beijing with congratulatory letters despite the continuing post-Tian An Men crackdown by their government). By the way, to change the subject, Paul, what do you think of the Vienna Circle's unhappy conclusion back in the late 1930's that scientific positivism had no way to get from the empirical "is" to the ethnical "ought"? Alaa, what do you think of us waxing philosophical about every question under the sun on your blog? cephas | Email | Homepage | 09.14.04 - 12:03 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To some the media has influenced to the degree perceived truth means US is democratizing Iraqi's against their will? If that were true 30 million Iraqis could easily shove coalition troops out of the country with ease. One must do more then read the headlines; it also helps to understand our mission in Iraq. Laurel | Email | Homepage | 09.14.04 - 8:37 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Postscript;Paul seems to be playing devils advocate for purposes of "what" Paul? The world is in as much danger as it has ever been with an enemy that crawls out of holes and kills and mutilates to spread terror. How simple is that? Islamic Jihadists and enter communism again; eyes open everyone, seudo intellectuals, you can't talk a war! You cannot free a people with words as terrorists have a dead end agenda. Laurel | Email | Homepage | 09.14.04 - 8:47 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If that were true 30 million Iraqis could easily shove coalition troops out of the country with ease. This conclusion ignores the unfortunate fact that those "30 million Iraqis" managed to lose the `91 rebellion to Saddam's troops and that was after we'd beat the shit out of them. Weaponry counts; that's why we spend the money on it. You'll be wanting to rethink your premise there. If you start with incorrect premises, you often reach incorrect conclusions. Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.14.04 - 11:25 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I get the last post. I can scream all I want to into the wind and no one will hear me. So I will say it again. There is something called the Perrenial Philosophy or the Perennial Tradition. It is the "wisdom tradition" of all mankind. It keeps recurring because it strips all major religious traditions down to their fundamental truths. And these truths are ALL THE SAME. And they keep recurring and are there for anyone to hear. Each prophet speaking these truths gets distorted by their interpretors - interpretors who are historically bound by a particular language and a particular cultural tradition and a particular historical epoch. . If you have access to the web and are a Christian or raised in any Christian tradition - go to amazon.com and look up "The Mystic Christ" by Ethan Walker III. If you are a human secularist go to Amazon.com and look up "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. I don't know enough about Islam yet to recognize the voices of the perennial tradition but I am pretty sure that they are the Sufis. I've seen the name of an Islamic mystic named Jalaluddin Rumi. I suspect that he is within this tradition. And for the skeptics who don't believe any of this and need a survey course, please check out the current course syllabus of a professor at a community college in Austin Texas named Adechene. His site is at www2.austincc.edu.adechene. Look on the right for his syllabus for "World religions". Go to "readings" and then read his entry for 6A: "What is the Perennial Philosophy?" If you think I am a new-age "crackpot" you are wrong. There is only one truth about who we are and what we are here for - and this truth has been expressed repeatedly by "prophets" and enlightened human beings throughout history. This truth transcends all cultures and all times and has been at the heart of each major religion before its CORRUPTION by the scholars and "experts" masquerading as the truth-tellers. It has never been more important in all of human history, when we face this "clash of civilizations" to recognize that we are all the same in our humanity and that the choice is not between one cultural heritage and another or between one great religious tradition and another. The more people who understand this - or really for Pete's sake! - the more human beings on this planet who are willing to take just a few moments to investigate this! - the better off we all will be. I promise you - you won't be disappointed in giving a few moments to investigate this no matter whether you are christian, jew, muslim, buddhist, or even atheist! Caroline | Email | Homepage | 09.14.04 - 6:49 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, I just read that in my country Rachid Belabed, a Moroccan Belgian and midfielder in a first division football club has been put under arrest for physically assaulting a terrorism expert who had on TV hinted at the link between Islamic extremism and terrorism. Belabed, a 24-year-old Belgian of Moroccan descent, was waiting outside the studios when Claude Moniquet, a former journalist, walked out with a friend after the show, Controverse, which had hosted a discussion on terrorism. "A man approached me. He was tense, nervous and said he wanted to talk to me," Moniquet, a writer on terrorism, told local tabloid La Derniere Heure. "He said 'I don't like you. You are an enemy of Islam, a racist'." Belabed hit him in the head and kicked him when he fell to the ground, Moniquet said, adding that he later had to be treated at a clinic for his injuries. Michael Cosyns | Email | Homepage | 09.14.04 - 7:16 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa, the inhererent danger of this constant barrage of news on Islamic terrorism is very dangerous in that it tends to make us generalize the threat emananting from Muslims. Over the past year, on more than one occasion, I've been tempted to throw all people of Islamic faith on one heap as covert-or-not- so-covert hatemongers, all the same, be it that they long for Islamic domination through terrorism or through demographics. And every post of yours cools me off again. Thanks for your sane voice man. You are being heard. Were it not for you and the other decent Iraqi and ME bloggers, I would probably have given up hope for Islam a long time ago. My sincere and heartfelt condolences for the bestial killings of the 59 Iraqi recruits, policemen and civilians. This is appalling. Michael Cosyns | Email | Homepage | 09.14.04 - 7:24 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think I am a new-age "crackpot" you are wrong. I actually hadn't identified your specific sub-set of crackpot yet. If it's not "new-age", then what is it? Lee C. ? U.S.A. | Email | Homepage | 09.15.04 - 5:16 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alaa: My condolences to Iraqi over the latest bombing. I hope the masterminds get caught soon. cephas | Email | Homepage | 09.15.04 - 7:33 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, Ah...the truth comes out... "I respect Prophet Mohammed and those who fight in his name, do you? I believe Islam is a religion of peace and that Australia should become an Islamic State, do you? Paul Edwards," So...you dis the christians but say that Islam should be the religion of your country. Does that include the rest of teh world? Do you understand the difference between the present day moderate Islamics like Alaa and the radical fundamentalist Islamic terrorists who are like the Aliens in "Independence day" with the only difference is that they would allow the rest of us to live if we join them? Man, you must not have much of a life...for you obviously have posted to this blog almost 24/7. Wish I had time to reply to each comment. You still make me laugh with all of the untruths. By the way, I am a Catholic but I do not hold to all of it's teachings and I do not think the Pope is infallable and that I should follow him as a God. For instance, I don't really care to pray to Mary as if she is among the deity. No, he is a holy man but not infallable. Nor do I give my opinion onthese posts because I am the "Bullhorn" of God. Man, people can sure plow things out of proportion. I am just wanting to share my faith. Because though my religion is Catholicism, I have Faith that God is real (as stated in the Bible) and that the gist of all that is in the bible is real. Maybe humans before me did get some things wrong like the sun revolving around the Earth. But hey...find me any book on any religion that is absolutely perfect and I will sell you some swamp land in Florida. No...Religion is simply what we humans put together to worship a God of our understanding. My faith is my strength...not my religion. I don't have the view of going back in time or forward in time. Nor do I allow my ego to get out of hand. Nor do I put anyone down on these posts. Nor do I say that anyone who has their own religion is bad. We all have free will. So I use mine to say that I think God is awesome. Sorry if that offends anyone. Hatred of Christians is something the revelation says will come to pass. I can see it coming. But it won't change my faith. Even if the pope odes something really wacked and goes off in some bad direction. I am just one human who does begin to get the message of love my neighbor as I want them to love me. That can include all on these posts. Even you, Paul. But not the truely evil ones who kill people indiscriminantly with bombs and go into schools to kill innocent children. That is just plain evil. Randy G. Randy G. | Email | Homepage | 09.17.04 - 2:22 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name: Email: URL: Comment: ? Commenting by HaloScan.com